Originally posted by carpedm9587
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SCOTUS & gay wedding cakes
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat never was the case anyway. No one in this case was being forced to abandon their beliefs. Baking a cake according to the specifications of the buyer is not the baker abandoning his beliefs. That's just silliness.
..."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have not seen anything in any of the reporting that suggests they were unwilling to. The reports I have read indicate the baker would not sell any wedding cake to them if it was to be used for a wedding in which two people of the same sex were marrying. I know other things have been reported in this discussion, but after the ruling I dug around and could not find any of that affirmed."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, they are meant to ensure that people are not discriminated against due to their sexual orientation, the same as they can't be discriminated against for any other reason related to their personal identity."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOne would think that a same sex couple could simply put their own cake topper of two grooms or two brides on a wedding cake themselves but it all seems about forcing others to do so.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut that is not the aim of these encounters - they are meant to legally harm anyone who disagrees with their agenda.
The ones doing "harm" are not those demanding equal rights, but those demanding the right to discriminate against some people in the name of Jesus.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThis baker isn't simply a baker. The requested service isn't just mixing flour and eggs and sugar in the correct proportions. The service requested was a specialized cake where the baker invents an artistic presentation where the unique and special attributes of the couples relationship are recreated in artwork on the cake. Something which for a same-sex relationship and marriage simply is not possible to do for this baker. One can't demand that an artist create from a dry well or operate in complete violation of his principles and morals. This situation is a complete and total violation of his conscience and being. He simply is not capable of offering them the service they desire any more than the couple is capable of suddenly deciding they are no longer same-sex attracted. He could give them a 'cake'. But he could not create what they would be paying for.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostWell, to the technical first. The MM/FF has no natural procreation options. They can adopt a child that has another father and another mother, or in the case of FF, one of the 'mothers' can get herself artificially impregnated with sperm from a MAN and make a baby. Either way, procreation only happens with a man and a women making a baby. There are NO same-sex procreation options.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostBut to the point of showing the differences. These are cakes with two different purposes. One contains symbology that supports a heterosexual marriage, the other symbology that supports a same-sex marriage. And as we've already agreed. A same-sex marriage and a heterosexual marriage are not the same thing, and the cakes made are in fact also not the same thing. One violates the religious convictions of the baker. The other does not.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThis is independent of any characteristic of the patrons requesting the cakes.
Jim
MichelThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post"I am an artist" is nort a valid excuse for bigotry or prejudice. "My religion says so" is not a valid excuse for bigotry or prejudice.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSo, you agree the Colorado commission erred when it did not require homosexual bakers to make anti-gay marriage message cakes?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostIt's in the decision. I wanna say it's about half way through but I haven't read it that carefully yet.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYet "I'm gay" is all that is sufficient to coerce someone into abandoning their religious beliefs
No one is being required to abandon their religious beliefs. They ARE required to provide any service they choose to provide without prejudice, or not provide the service. The baker has a way to follow his conscience/beliefs without engaging in prejudice.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSince no one has successfully (IMO) refuted the genetics argument...of course I return to it. It is the heart of my argument and the heart of the inconsistency made by those advocating for the baker.
1. There is no reason to "refute" it because it is nothing but an equivocation on your part. There is no "genetic" discrimination other than in your "story"
2. Even if there WERE genetic discrimination, so what? Why would that be "wrong"? Nothing is really 'wrong' in your view anyway. So your picking that hill to die on is ridiculous. Might as well argue the color of their skin was what he was discriminating against because both of them were white.
I can list many "genetic" differences that you would have no problem in discriminating against someone on. I mentioned them before. Addiction for example. If someone had genetics that made them have an addictive personality, you would still be fine in arresting someone for drug abuse. You wouldn't argue that it was discrimination because they were genetically disposed to addiction. You don't have any problem with keeping men out of women's locker rooms do you? Isn't that discrimination based on what is between their legs?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have not seen anything in any of the reporting that suggests they were unwilling to. The reports I have read indicate the baker would not sell any wedding cake to them if it was to be used for a wedding in which two people of the same sex were marrying. I know other things have been reported in this discussion, but after the ruling I dug around and could not find any of that affirmed.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo one is being required to abandon their religious beliefs. They ARE required to provide any service they choose to provide without prejudice, or not provide the service. The baker has a way to follow his conscience/beliefs without engaging in prejudice.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIn the 1950s, your sentence would have read, "Yet "I'm black" is all that is sufficient to coerce someone into abandoning their religious beliefs"
And how about a Jewish baker being compelled to design a birthday cake for some neo-Nazis in the shape of the concentration camp at Auschwitz complete with little smokestack shaped candles.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBecause he does more than stick a topper on a generic cake. He decorates the cake, shaping them to specs, painting them, and even caters them at the wedding, delivering and cutting the cakes. Did you even watch the video I posted earlier?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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