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  • #91
    Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
    Oh, this again. You've posted this repeatedly, and I have repeatedly shown how it's a bad argument. But sure, let's go through it again.

    I won't include all the quotes because the issue with them is all the same: How do quotes from people centuries ago mean anything in regards to definitions? As I've pointed out, words shift meaning, and the word "democracy" has a more expansive meaning now than it does then. These quotes of yours, and therefore your entire post, mean absolutely nothing in regards to the modern meanings of those words. You might as well argue that Donald Duck is homosexual because he's referred to as "gay" in The Three Caballeros (released when the word simply meant "happy").

    Your post may be have merit as an argument as to why we have elected officials rather than deciding everything via referendum, but that is a completely separate topic than what a particular word means.

    All he did was repeat the claim that I had already refuted. If my point is "pulling out quotes from centuries ago doesn't mean anything because of definition shift" then pulling out more quotes from centuries ago doesn't mean anything.

    Every modern dictionary I have consulted states that democracies can, in fact, use representation.

    Let's consult Merriam Webster, for example. According to it, democracy is:
    "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections"

    And a republic is:
    "a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law"
    (there are other definitions for both provided, but these are the ones relevant to our interests)

    Based on these definitions, the relationship of "republic" and "democracy" (in their modern definitions) is that a republic is a kind of democracy. Democracy includes government directly by the people or indirectly through their representatives. A republic is only the variety that is done via representatives. One will find this relation to be the same if one examines how other dictionaries define the two terms. Though in terms of application in the real world, they are essentially synonyms because as far as I know, every democracy in the world is a republic.

    Of course, someone may ask what the proper term would be for the "original" definition of democracy, i.e. the idea of everything being decided directly by the people by majority. Even if the term democracy is no longer that narrow, there's still reason to want a way to refer to such an idea. "Direct democracy" is likely the best term to describe that.
    Democracy: government by the people
    Republic: government by representation


    Changing the definitions to fit modern governmental forms just over complicates things. Those definitions may work for common speech but they are not used in technical discussion of the governmental forms - poli sci spends endless hours defining its terms over and over again and no one bothers redefining the basics. It's a democratic republic - - a hybrid of a democracy and a republic.

    Your argument boils down to 'well, it's what common folks call a democracy' - which is fine, but it is not a technical argument and is an extremely poor understanding of the forms involved.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #92
      OK, time for an oldie but a goodie.....

      ...to the REPUBLIC for which it stands....

      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Democracy: government by the people
        Republic: government by representation


        Changing the definitions to fit modern governmental forms just over complicates things. Those definitions may work for common speech but they are not used in technical discussion of the governmental forms - poli sci spends endless hours defining its terms over and over again and no one bothers redefining the basics. It's a democratic republic - - a hybrid of a democracy and a republic.

        Your argument boils down to 'well, it's what common folks call a democracy' - which is fine, but it is not a technical argument and is an extremely poor understanding of the forms involved.
        Yup, it amounts to declaring it's how many misunderstand it so that means it's the same.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Those definitions may work for common speech but they are not used in technical discussion of the governmental forms - poli sci spends endless hours defining its terms over and over again and no one bothers redefining the basics.
          It is true that words can have different meanings based on their context, with the "technical" definitions being different than the more common definitions. There are a few problems, however. The first is that what was occurring was common speech, not "technical discussion of the governmental forms."

          The second is that a term being used in a more restrictive way in technical discussion does not mean a more broad definition, or even a wholly different definition, is therefore incorrect. I've cited the definition for democracy from Merriam-Webster, but I did only cite one of them. Here's the full list:
          "1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
          b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
          2 : a political unit that has a democratic government
          3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.
          from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy —C. M. Roberts
          4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
          5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges"

          1a seems to be the more "technical" definition you are identifying, whereas 1b is the more common definition. Now, you may claim the United States does not qualify under definition 1a (it certainly doesn't under "rule of the majority"), but the fact is it does qualify under 1b. Unless someone is clearly using definition 1a rather than definition 1b, referring to the United States as a democracy is not a mistake, and can generally be inferred by context to mean definition 1b.

          An example of erroneously referring to the United States as a democracy would be if someone were to try to argue against some supreme court decision on the basis of "most people disagree with that decision, so under democracy, the will of the majority should prevail!" In such a case, they are obviously using 1a, and it is absolutely fine to correct them on the fact that the United States does not qualify as a democracy under that definition. However, generally speaking someone will be using definition 1b, and there is therefore no problem.

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          OK, time for an oldie but a goodie.....

          ...to the REPUBLIC for which it stands....
          Is this an attempt to appeal to the pledge of allegiance in the argument of "the pledge of allegiance says republic, that means the US isn't a democracy"? There are two major issues with that. First, that simply says it's a republic, not that it's not a democracy, when it can qualify as both. Second, if the guy who wrote the pledge of allegiance was so brilliant in regards to word meanings that we must therefore accept his declaration, then we must accept the United States is a democracy as well, as he referred to it as such elsewhere.

          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Yup, it amounts to declaring it's how many misunderstand it so that means it's the same.
          It's not a misunderstanding, it's what the word means, and what it's meant for a long time despite your claims. The United States being considered to be a democracy goes back at least into the 19th century. Indeed, John Quincy Adams referred to it as such in his inaugural address (well, technically he referred to the government as such but that's splitting hairs). True, he said it was a "confederated representative democracy" but something being a type of democracy still means it's a democracy.

          Again, not all words in the present have the same definitions or connotations as they did in the past, and rigidly clinging to a particular definition simply on the basis of "well, look at these quotes from people several centuries ago" is a poor argument. Unless you're going to insist we must use "awful" to mean awe-inspiring, must use "nice" to mean foolish, and must use "egregious" to mean good, and can never use "sex" to refer to the act of intercourse and it can only be used to refer to whether someone is male or female? If not, your stance is inconsistent.

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          • #95
            When you (general) are discussing the actual form, you are discussing the technical form. You personally may be discussing the common slang but the rest of us are discussing the actual form of US government.

            It's a democratic republic, same as it's always been. You can argue all you like - but you're just plain wrong.


            And no, Webster doesn't prove you right...
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              ...


              And no, Webster doesn't prove you right...
              Sometimes a dictionary is the worst place to go to find out what a word means.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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              • #97
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                Sometimes a dictionary is the worst place to go to find out what a word means.
                poop


                define THAT
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #98
                  Just because it's popular to call a boat a ship does not magically turn a boat into a ship.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    When you (general) are discussing the actual form, you are discussing the technical form. You personally may be discussing the common slang but the rest of us are discussing the actual form of US government.
                    The first post that started up the hubbub was JimL declaring that our democracy was in jeopardy (a claim I find silly, but that is besides the point). The form of the government was not really important to his point, just whether or not the government was in jeopardy. His usage of "democracy" was clearly in reference to the more general definition of democracy, i.e. the one that isn't "technical" by your definition (this would be 1b in the definitions I cited). Then someone came along and said he used the term wrong and that the US wasn't a democracy, apparently insisting on the "technical" definition (1a), which prompted my response criticizing that. That caused this discussion. Trying to retcon this as a "technical" discussion from the start is ignoring how it actually came about.

                    And no, Webster doesn't prove you right...
                    If it were just one dictionary, I might agree. But every single other dictionary I have consulted gives the same definitions.

                    To be fair, sometimes a dictionary may not be "up to date" with a recent word shift, often due to some new slang being introduced. But the claim here is not saying a dictionary is wrong because it missed a new or shifted definition, so that is inapplicable.

                    I suppose you could also try to argue in favor of descriptivist meaning over prescriptivist, but that's self-refuting whenever attempting to argue against common usage of a word, as descriptivist is to have a word's meanings be whatever they are generally used as.
                    Last edited by Terraceth; 07-12-2018, 09:49 PM.

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                    • How can you discuss a form being in jeopardy without actually understanding the form?

                      Jim's claim, I agree, was silly. The response to it was also silly - it only kinda mattered at that point. But you deciding to jump in with that 'it's really a democracy' nonsense when it was pretty obviously just Jim, CP and Rogue having a dog fight (again) was the dumbest part of all. You changed a hiccup into a full on derail.

                      And you're still wrong. It's still a democratic republic, no matter how lazy people are discussing it.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        And you're still wrong. It's still a democratic republic, no matter how lazy people are discussing it.
                        I never said it wasn’t a democratic republic. It is one. It also is a democracy. The terms both apply; one is simply more specific. Though personally I prefer “representative democracy” to “democratic republic” as I feel it’s more intuitive while still carrying the same meaning.

                        Though, you keep insisting I am wrong. Can you provide any authoritative source for this? I’ve attempted to do that; after all, dictionaries are specifically created to supply definitions of words, so when determining a definition, they are generally excellent authorities. But so far all I've seen cited against my position is quotes from a century or two ago which, as noted before, can hardly be used to try to determine what the modern definition of a word is.

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                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Jim's claim, I agree, was silly. The response to it was also silly - it only kinda mattered at that point. But you deciding to jump in with that 'it's really a democracy' nonsense when it was pretty obviously just Jim, CP and Rogue having a dog fight (again) was the dumbest part of all. You changed a hiccup into a full on derail.
                          Enh, fair enough point on this. I'm just a bit tired of the rather gratuitous "it's not a democracy!" insistence if someone dares ever drop the term, particularly when it's not even relevant to the point of the original message.

                          Let's return to the original topic, then. Has there been any new development in regards to Kavanaugh? As far as I can tell, so far there hasn't been a hearing scheduled yet. In fact, from what I can tell, it seems to have been mostly forgotten by the media by this point. I'm sure when it becomes relevant again it'll be covered in doubletime but the rather abrupt dropping of the story is a little surprising to me.

                          (this should have been part of the above message, but by the time I went back to edit it, the edit period had unfortunately closed)
                          Last edited by Terraceth; 07-14-2018, 12:45 AM.

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                          • News

                            The above is the first thing about it since the nomination that I'd call news. If it pans out, he's going to get the confirmation.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Trump couldn't care less about the abortion issue, apart from pandering to his Evangelical base. In fact, given his sexual promiscuity it wouldn't be surprising if some of his "conquests" had aborted Trump progeny over the years. Kavanaugh was the only realistic choice for Trump, because he is the only judge on the shortlist that believes a president should be immune from investigation.
                              I can't comment on the investigation part, but as for the first half, frankly it wouldn't surprise me a bit.
                              I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                News

                                The above is the first thing about it since the nomination that I'd call news. If it pans out, he's going to get the confirmation.
                                Hrm. Well it is Fox News so there's obviously a spin to try to make things look good, and of course for Murkowski and Collins it only relies on vague "sources."

                                The mention of Democrats who may have reason to vote for him is interesting, though; I forgot about Doug Jones, though, due to his unusual position. That said, I'm not sure the article's claim of "analysts say he would face significant political consequences if he tried to derail Kavanaugh's nomination" is that accurate. His election isn't for a few years yet and even if he loses, I can't imagine that "the guy who won Alabama for the Democrats" wouldn't be able to find some other position afterwards. Depends on how much he values getting re-elected in his current position versus just accepting he can probably pretty easily find a position elsewhere.

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