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Voter ID Redux

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    All of which makes me think that it wasn't the "street address" problem it was made out to be, as a utility bill could be used. Utilities have to have a physical service address -- you can't just hook up electric service to a PO box.
    And you have not yet shown that these 65K people actually HAVE these utilities from a public utilities provider. Have you ever visited a reservation, CP? Have you actually seen and explored the infrastructure? I continue to ask, where is your citation for the fact that these people have such a connection. In my experience, many of these reservations have wells, septic systems, and many either have no power, are off-the-grid (e.g., solar, wind, generator), or are served by a power distribution system provided by the tribe.

    You seem to be making a lot of assumptions, with no substantiation. I am pointing to the website and the SCOTUS dissension. Another article from the AP can be found here.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      And you have not yet shown that these 65K people actually HAVE these utilities from a public utilities provider. Have you ever visited a reservation, CP?
      Yes, we have Vacation Bible School on one in New Mexico every summer for the last 20something years!

      Have you actually seen and explored the infrastructure? I continue to ask, where is your citation for the fact that these people have such a connection. In my experience, many of these reservations have wells, septic systems, and many either have no power, are off-the-grid (e.g., solar, wind, generator), or are served by a power distribution system provided by the tribe.

      You seem to be making a lot of assumptions, with no substantiation. I am pointing to the website and the SCOTUS dissension. Another article from the AP can be found here.
      "Hey, this is Standing Bear, and I'm having a party at my house on Friday night, but I can't give you my address cause I don't live on a STREET".
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Actually - I'm saying you are misreading the official website, and making assumptions it does not support. The top says clearly a "residential address" is one of the three required pieces of information, which is exactly the point of the court challenge, and the dissenter's response.
        Well... no, that's not what the dissent says. The complaint being made here, from my understanding, is that the switch from mailing address to street address makes it impossible for the Native Americans living on reservations and related areas to vote, as there aren't street addresses, but PO boxes. But that isn't the criticism made in the dissent at all. Its criticism is that the change was done so close to the election that it runs too high a risk of causing voter confusion by making it so that primary and full election requirements were different. There's no criticism of the change itself (as appears to be your claim), simply the timing of it. Here's the full dissent:

        I would grant the application to vacate the Eighth Circuit’s stay because last-minute “[c]ourt orders affecting elections, especially conflicting orders, can themselves result in voter confusion and consequent incentive to remain away from the polls.” Purcell v. Gonzalez, 549 U. S. 1, 4–5 (2006) (per curiam). The risk of voter confusion appears severe here because the injunction against requiring residential-address identification was in force during the primary election and because the Secretary of State’s website announced for months the ID requirements as they existed under that injunction. Reasonable voters may well assume that the IDs allowing them to vote in the primary election would remain valid in the general election. If the Eighth Circuit’s stay is not vacated, the risk of disfranchisement is large. The Eighth Circuit observed that voters have a month to “adapt” to the new regime. But that observation overlooks specific factfindings by the District Court: (1) 70,000 North Dakota residents—almost 20% of the turnout in a regular quadrennial election—lack a qualifying ID; and (2) approximately 18,000 North Dakota residents also lack supplemental documentation sufficient to permit them to vote without a qualifying ID. Although the unchallenged portion of the injunction permitting the use of more informal supplemental documents somewhat lessens this concern, that relief, by itself, scarcely cures the problem given the all too real risk of grand-scale voter confusion. True, an order by this Court vacating the stay would be yet another decision that disrupts the status quo as the election draws ever closer. But the confusion arising from vacating the stay would at most lead to voters securing an additional form of ID. That inconvenience pales in comparison to the confusion caused by the Eighth Circuit’s order, which may lead to voters finding out at the polling place that they cannot vote because their formerly valid ID is now insufficient.
        This really doesn't line up with the complaint you were making.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Wow - I don't know if people are being intentionally thick - but this has been explained multiple times. They do these things with a P.O. Box. - not a residential street address.
          I must have missed where the supplemental identification must include a residential street address. Maybe you can point that out to me.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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          • #50
            So, I checked out some Google Maps of some Indian Reservations - namely the one I frequent in New Mexico (Mescalero), and Standing Rock in North Dakota. Guess what... The roads have NAMES! (OR, at least, numbers)

            So, back to the inclusion of the utility bill as a form of support for identification...

            Unless you want to believe that all these American Indians are so primitive that they don't have electricity or water or other services -- like maybe they live in a Tee Pee or Wigwam out in the middle of nowhere, and the only way you can get there is by horse - there MUST be a way to specify what physical location the utility serves. That would be a "service address".

            I do know that the American Indians with whom I have contact all have (with no exception) PO Boxes. But that's because it's not very efficient for a mail truck to run a route where there would be very few residences on long stretches of NAMED (or numbered) roads. (And maybe the American Indians don't want those mail trucks coming through their land, I don't know)

            TBH, I don't know if the actual residences have "numbers", but it would not be difficult at all to make it so.

            Now, for those city slickers who don't know what a "Rural Route" is --- like "Route 4 box 78" -- It's a route (just like a paper route) that includes whatever streets, roads or highways are within the region or territory or geographic area it serves. We have bunches of these in Texas. There is no "street address", but the "Route 4 box 78" is, indeed, a "residential address" like what would be allowed on the SoS ND website.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              If you read it - every part of it says that "residential address" is required. The problem is that some 65K of these tribe members do not have a residential address.....
              You're not even reading your own article, Carpe....

              How many, exactly? The district court found that at least 4,998 otherwise eligible Native Americans do not have an ID with a current street address. They are not alone: About 65,000 non–Native American voters also lack the necessary ID. The law does allow voters to provide “supplemental documentation” to prove their identity, such as a utility bill or bank statement. But once again, Native Americans are disproportionately unlikely to have these materials, due in part to poverty and homelessness within their communities. Thus, at least 2,305 Native Americans may not be allowed to cast a ballot in the 2018 election.


              The "65,000" refer to non-Native Americans -- not "65K of these tribe members" as you falsely claim. It, like you do, just jumps back and forth between the Native Americans and the 65K non-Native Americans. Read that portion --

              5K Native Americans do not have ID with current street address (the requirement is not a street address but a residential address)
              Then they add in 65K non-Native American voters who lack ID.
              Then they jump back to Native Americans are disproportionately unlikely to have these materials....
              THEN they conclude that it's just over 2K Native Americans may not be allowed to vote.

              This article is crap.

              I think you found an article that you thought supported your anti-Republican views, and just posted it without doing the homework at which you claim to be so good.

              And the quite biased article makes some pretty strong assumptions for which they offer no support - they just expect you to take them at their word, and you do.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                .... Another article from the AP can be found here.
                And from THAT article... (bolding mine)

                The Turtle Mountain reservation is located in Rolette County in north-central North Dakota. County emergency coordinator Mike Stewart said Monday that residential street addresses have been assigned in “99 percent” of the county — including on the reservation — in the past several years.

                He agreed with state elections officials that obtaining a residential street address is a no-cost and quick process that may take no more than a few hours.

                “It’s very possible some homes have been overlooked,” Stewart said.

                One problem, he said, is that many people don’t realize their homes have been assigned a street address, a process that has been ongoing over the past several years.


                So, God forbid that we should help these people realize (if they don't already) that they do, in fact (in 99 percent of the county) already have 'street addresses'. Let's use them as political pawns instead of treating them like people!

                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Citation...? I can't find anything on this...
                  Kemp is the republican secretary of state and is in control of voter registration at the same time he is running for Govenor. The "exact match" scheme is an obvious scam meant to suppress the democrat, partucularly the African American vote, which of course enhances his own chances of winning in this otherwise neck and neck race. He is now being asked to resign as secretary of state and the case is going to court. Just one more instance of the many ways republicans go about suppressing the vote of their opposition.

                  http://www.cnn.com/2018/10/11/politi...emp/index.html
                  Last edited by JimL; 10-12-2018, 01:14 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    So, I checked out some Google Maps of some Indian Reservations - namely the one I frequent in New Mexico (Mescalero), and Standing Rock in North Dakota. Guess what... The roads have NAMES! (OR, at least, numbers)

                    So, back to the inclusion of the utility bill as a form of support for identification...

                    Unless you want to believe that all these American Indians are so primitive that they don't have electricity or water or other services -- like maybe they live in a Tee Pee or Wigwam out in the middle of nowhere, and the only way you can get there is by horse - there MUST be a way to specify what physical location the utility serves. That would be a "service address".
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I wouldn't be surprised if they envision them as nomads still wandering around and building a teepee and living there for a few weeks before moving on.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Yes, we have Vacation Bible School on one in New Mexico every summer for the last 20something years!

                      "Hey, this is Standing Bear, and I'm having a party at my house on Friday night, but I can't give you my address cause I don't live on a STREET".
                      They apparently do not have a conventional street address. Except for arguments from incredulity, I'm not seeing you address the issue. Why would anyone file suit on the basis of a lack of street address, and why would the SCOTUS dissenters cite exactly this issue, if it were not actually an issue? Indeed, for the first 6 years I lived in my house, we didn't have a house number that could be used as a street address. We were on what was called an HCR. We had to give utilities the name of our street, and then provide landmarks for them to find the house (it's the fourth house on the river side of the street - brown with a barn-style garage." It wasn't until E911 laws made house numbers mandatory that we received a conventional street address.

                      THIS is the apparent issue - not they they don't have a street - or a house - but that they do not have a conventional residential address, as mandated by the ND law and stipulated at the top of their web page.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                        Well... no, that's not what the dissent says. The complaint being made here, from my understanding, is that the switch from mailing address to street address makes it impossible for the Native Americans living on reservations and related areas to vote, as there aren't street addresses, but PO boxes. But that isn't the criticism made in the dissent at all. Its criticism is that the change was done so close to the election that it runs too high a risk of causing voter confusion by making it so that primary and full election requirements were different. There's no criticism of the change itself (as appears to be your claim), simply the timing of it. Here's the full dissent:

                        This really doesn't line up with the complaint you were making.
                        I would grant the application to vacate the Eighth Circuit’s stay because last-minute “[c]ourt orders affecting elections, especially conflicting orders, can themselves result in voter confusion and consequent incentive to remain away from the polls.” Purcell v. Gonzalez, 549 U. S. 1, 4–5 (2006) (per curiam). The risk of voter confusion appears severe here because the injunction against requiring residential-address identification was in force during the primary election and because the Secretary of State’s website announced for months the ID requirements as they existed under that injunction. Reasonable voters may well assume that the IDs allowing them to vote in the primary election would remain valid in the general election. If the Eighth Circuit’s stay is not vacated, the risk of disfranchisement is large. The Eighth Circuit observed that voters have a month to “adapt” to the new regime. But that observation overlooks specific factfindings by the District Court: (1) 70,000 North Dakota residents—almost 20% of the turnout in a regular quadrennial election—lack a qualifying ID; and (2) approximately 18,000 North Dakota residents also lack supplemental documentation sufficient to permit them to vote without a qualifying ID. Although the unchallenged portion of the injunction permitting the use of more informal supplemental documents somewhat lessens this concern, that relief, by itself, scarcely cures the problem given the all too real risk of grand-scale voter confusion. True, an order by this Court vacating the stay would be yet another decision that disrupts the status quo as the election draws ever closer. But the confusion arising from vacating the stay would at most lead to voters securing an additional form of ID. That inconvenience pales in comparison to the confusion caused by the Eighth Circuit’s order, which may lead to voters finding out at the polling place that they cannot vote because their formerly valid ID is now insufficient.


                        Emphasis mine. As best I can tell from the reports - the supplemental documentation missing is the absence of that proper street address. They have utility bills - but the utility bills have P.O. Boxes on them - not street addresses. The USPS does not deliver in many of these regions, so the people have P.O. Boxes.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Kemp is the republican secretary of state and is in control of voter registration at the same time he is running for Govenor. The "exact match" scheme is an obvious scam meant to suppress the democrat, partucularly the African American vote, which of course enhances his own chances of winning in this otherwise neck and neck race. He is now being asked to resign as secretary of state and the case is going to court. Just one more instance of the many ways republicans go about suppressing the vote of their opposition.

                          http://www.cnn.com/2018/10/11/politi...emp/index.html
                          Hmm...I'm not ready to go out on that limb. Just because something disproportionately impacts one group or another does not mean that group is being targeted. If the "exact match" criteria is law, then the process is mandated by law. If there is a procedure for permitting these people to vote, then they are safe (and that appears to be the case). For me to go out on this limb, someone would have to show that there is a high incidence of "exact match" being overlooked for Republican or white voters, and I see nothing that suggests this.

                          Personally, I think it's bad form to have a candidate in a position to impact voter registration when that registration can impact the outcome of the election. I think the candidate should recuse themselves or resign, simply because of the perception and the undermining of public trust. But I see no reason here to accuse them of malfeasance. Poor judgement related to public perception, maybe. But not fraud or racism or partisanship.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            And from THAT article... (bolding mine)

                            The Turtle Mountain reservation is located in Rolette County in north-central North Dakota. County emergency coordinator Mike Stewart said Monday that residential street addresses have been assigned in “99 percent” of the county — including on the reservation — in the past several years.

                            He agreed with state elections officials that obtaining a residential street address is a no-cost and quick process that may take no more than a few hours.

                            “It’s very possible some homes have been overlooked,” Stewart said.

                            One problem, he said, is that many people don’t realize their homes have been assigned a street address, a process that has been ongoing over the past several years.


                            So, God forbid that we should help these people realize (if they don't already) that they do, in fact (in 99 percent of the county) already have 'street addresses'. Let's use them as political pawns instead of treating them like people!

                            Which brings us to the dissent and Terra's point: the timing. Happening within weeks of an upcoming election creates an enormous opportunity for disenfranchisement. This has been my objection to Voter ID laws from the outset. I have never argued "don't have them." I have always argued "don't implement them in ways that disenfranchise voters." Make sure people HAVE an adequate window and adequate resources to secure the proper ID, THEN make them mandatory. Voter ID should not deny the vote to significantly more people than the incidence of voter fraud (which has STILL not been shown to occur to any significant degree) it purports to prevent.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              How do you know they're not? Citations please.
                              I don't. What I know is that a group of close to 65K people lack the ability to provide street address documentation. That was the crux of the court case. The reason is that they receive their mail by P.O. Box, so lack documentation that furnishes a residential street address.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                They apparently do not have a conventional street address. Except for arguments from incredulity, I'm not seeing you address the issue.....
                                Because you started responding before reading the thread. 911 addressing.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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