Interaction Problem Involving the Soul and Body

[JonathanL]

The indications are that the mind derives from the brain, no brain, no mind.

No, there's no such indication, that's your presupposition.

Why not, given the similarities, on what basis are you claiming that Homo sapiens are unique in this regard?

But I'm not claiming Homo Sapiens are unique in this regard. I'm simply refraining from making a claim as to the nature of the minds of other animals.

Your belief that the mind depends upon the brain for it's existence is no less of a "faith-belief".

The brain IS the mind. When it goes the mind goes and before it comes on, there is no mind.

The amount of evidence you've presented for this assertion so far in this, or any other thread, is effectively zero.

This is an argument from ignorance based on presuppositions

No, it's an argument from what should be possible if the mind was material. If the mind was material it should have certain properties that would make it detectable by the senses, or through some sort of measuring device/instrument. The fact that this is not the case indicates that the mind lacks these properties that make material objects material.

[JonathanL]

I guess it's what the ghost in the machine folks would call a (properly basic belief.)

The belief that the mind is material, or dependent on something material for it's existence isn't even properly basic. There's no evidence for it, and it doesn't even make sense intuitively.

[Sparko]

There are assumptions here that without first assuming, would make the question you're asking illogical. You are still assuming that what we call the mind is an existing thing in itself. Brain function, the mind, is not a thing in itself. The mind isn't being generated by brain activity, the mind is the brain in action.

Because, from my perspective, you, as has been stated many times, are your brain. When your brain decides what to think, that is you deciding what to think. When you die, when your brain dies, then you no longer decide what to think.

How does your brain "decide what to think?"

[JimL]

How does your brain "decide what to think?"

The same way you do. Think about it!

[JimL]

The belief that the mind is material, or dependent on something material for it's existence isn't even properly basic. There's no evidence for it, and it doesn't even make sense intuitively.

True, there is no evidence of a distinct existing thing which we call the mind. Thoughts, memories, ideas, are not existing entities, disembodied immaterial spirit beings floating about in some immaterial space, they are material information, data, encoded and stored within the complexity of the physical brain. The only thing special about you, that distinguishes you from the lowley animals you are descendent of, is that you and your complex physical brain are far more evolved. Or is it your contention that the ants you crush under foot are actually immaterial beings housed in tiny little ant bodies?

[Sparko]

The same way you do. Think about it!

Not an answer JimL.

How does your brain decide what to think?

Something controls what you think about. Deciding what neurons to fire which cause the thoughts to happen. What is that something?

[JimL]

Not an answer JimL.

How does your brain decide what to think?

Something controls what you think about. Deciding what neurons to fire which cause the thoughts to happen. What is that something?

The something is you, that is your brain, interacting with the world. There is no homunculus sitting inside your head pushing buttons and igniting neurons.

[Sparko]

The something is you, that is your brain, interacting with the world. There is no homunculus sitting inside your head pushing buttons and igniting neurons.

Still not an answer JimL. If your brain is chugging along thinking about eating tacos, how does it suddenly decide it wants to think about what to wear tomorrow? Then decide it wants to turn on CNN and check out the news? Some random fluctuation in the electrical pattern?

The mind is in control of the brain. YOU are your mind. You control what neurons fire in your brain and what thoughts are being thought. You are conscious and in control. You are not just some randomly operating meatball that just fires neurons for no reason.

Well maybe in your case you are.

[JonathanL]

True, there is no evidence of a distinct existing thing which we call the mind.

Except for, you know, the mind. Which you are using right now to think up a reply to this post.

Thoughts, memories, ideas, are not existing entities, disembodied immaterial spirit beings floating about in some immaterial space, they are material information, data, encoded and stored within the complexity of the physical brain.

That doesn't even make any sense. Even if thoughts, memories and ideas were material information stored within the brain there is no way to explain how that would lead to a subjective, first-person experience of this information unless there is some kind of entity distinct from the brain that is actually experiencing this data.

The only thing special about you, that distinguishes you from the lowley animals you are descendent of, is that you and your complex physical brain are far more evolved. Or is it your contention that the ants you crush under foot are actually immaterial beings housed in tiny little ant bodies?

It's my contention that it's completely irrelevant question.

[Sparko]

Except for, you know, the mind. Which you are using right now to think up a reply to this post.

Good article on just that here:

Does Your Self Exist? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...our-self-exist

[JimL]

Still not an answer JimL. If your brain is chugging along thinking about eating tacos, how does it suddenly decide it wants to think about what to wear tomorrow? Then decide it wants to turn on CNN and check out the news? Some random fluctuation in the electrical pattern?

How does your immaterial brain/mind thingy decide to think about what to wear tomorrow? What all of you ghost in the machine pushers neglect to consider is "how does the ghost mind work, what makes it decide to think this or that?" Got an answer? I gave you mine.

The mind is in control of the brain. YOU are your mind. You control what neurons fire in your brain and what thoughts are being thought. You are conscious and in control. You are not just some randomly operating meatball that just fires neurons for no reason.

See above.

[Sparko]

How does your immaterial brain/mind thingy decide to think about what to wear tomorrow? What all of you ghost in the machine pushers neglect to consider is "how does the ghost mind work, what makes it decide to think this or that?" Got an answer? I gave you mine.

See above.

Because the mind is conscious and self-aware. It is not just the brain firing random patterns. There is a a "self" consciousness that directs your thoughts and the brain. YOU decide to move your arm and your brain fires up the motor neurons and moves your arm. The mind is the control. It is not material. You don't even have to believe in the supernatural to accept that. Even if you believe the mind is dependent on the brain to function, the mind is still more than just the brain firing patterns. It has a consciousness and a subjective sense of identity and can self-direct it's function and control the brain.

And you didn't give any explanation, you just repeated your assertion that the mind is the brain.

[Tassman]

No, there's no such indication, that's your presupposition.

But I'm not claiming Homo Sapiens are unique in this regard. I'm simply refraining from making a claim as to the nature of the minds of other animals.

Your belief that the mind depends upon the brain for it's existence is no less of a "faith-belief".

The amount of evidence you've presented for this assertion so far in this, or any other thread, is effectively zero.

No, it's an argument from what should be possible if the mind was material. If the mind was material it should have certain properties that would make it detectable by the senses, or through some sort of measuring device/instrument. The fact that this is not the case indicates that the mind lacks these properties that make material objects material.

[JimL]

Because the mind is conscious and self-aware. It is not just the brain firing random patterns. There is a a "self" consciousness that directs your thoughts and the brain. YOU decide to move your arm and your brain fires up the motor neurons and moves your arm. The mind is the control. It is not material. You don't even have to believe in the supernatural to accept that. Even if you believe the mind is dependent on the brain to function, the mind is still more than just the brain firing patterns. It has a consciousness and a subjective sense of identity and can self-direct it's function and control the brain.

And you didn't give any explanation, you just repeated your assertion that the mind is the brain.

No, it seems that we are conscious due to the physical brain, not in spite of it. Comatose, unconscious patients, patients in a vegitative state, have been found to have damage in specific areas of the brain which themselves are connected to other very specific areas of the brain. Where do you suppose your ghost in the machine, or conscious mind, goes when the living patient is comatose? The brain is extremely complex as i'm sure you know, so to assume that consciousness didn't evolve from out of that complexity is just an argument from ignorance. The science suggests that your intuition is wrong.

[Sparko]

No, it seems that we are conscious due to the physical brain, not in spite of it. Comatose, unconscious patients, patients in a vegitative state, have been found to have damage in specific areas of the brain which themselves are connected to other very specific areas of the brain. Where do you suppose your ghost in the machine, or conscious mind, goes when the living patient is comatose? The brain is extremely complex as i'm sure you know, so to assume that consciousness didn't evolve from out of that complexity is just an argument from ignorance. The science suggests that your intuition is wrong.

Many comatose patients report being consciously aware of what is going on around them but unable to respond. There are also reports of children with hydrocephalitis where large portions of their brain has been destroyed but they still function normally. But like I said, I believe the brain is the interface between the soul and the body. When the brain is damaged, it affects how the soul or mind works too.