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Alabama Abortion Ban:

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  • #31
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I disagree. The rapist forced this life upon her. She had no say in its coming into existence. Any consequence of his action, up to and including her choice not to allow the pregnancy to continue falls fully and completely on the rapist. She has the right not to be forced to sacrifice her life even for her own child. By starting a human life in this way, he is criminally negligent, and if the outcome is the child's death, it is his guilt to bear. She is the victim. The newly forming life is the victim. And he is the criminal.

    Jim
    You disagree about what? That it is a human life, and therefore human rights apply to them?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #32
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      Sorry, but your rant is just a combination of abuse of the victim, the women who was raped, and putting your fingers in your ears and refusing to even listen to the points made. This is not abortion for birth control. My point is that rape is effectively the same class of situation as danger to the life of the mother. Insread of debating that point, you are off once again attacking the person instead of providing a reasoned counter point, if one exists.

      Jim
      You'll have to explain that one. Assuming there are no medical complications, how does a victim of rape carrying a pregnancy to term endanger her life?

      I'm not saying there won't be emotional hardships associated with it, but murdering the baby is not the answer, and in fact could make things worse for the mother, both physically and emotionally.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Wrong. I don't care how "early" the stage is, abortion is the deliberate termination of a person's life.
        I didnt say the abortion didn't kill, I said in this case it is not murder. Is allowing an abortion when the mother's life is endangered by the pregnancy murder?

        Jim
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          You disagree about what? That it is a human life, and therefore human rights apply to them?
          I was clear, you just were not capable of listening. If the well being or life of the women that was raped is threatened by the pregnancy, then this is a situation where the abortion should be allowed. The guilt and responsibilty for that death rests completely on the rapist, the criminal, not on the victim.

          Jim
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            You'll have to explain that one. Assuming there are no medical complications, how does a victim of rape carrying a pregnancy to term endanger her life?

            I'm not saying there won't be emotional hardships associated with it, but murdering the baby is not the answer, and in fact could make things worse for the mother, both physically and emotionally.
            One possibility is that the trauma and stress of both the rape and being forced to carry the child to term could lead to suicide or suicidal ideation. This would be a clear threat to her physical life. Such a consequence is not at all unlikely.

            But I don't believe the threat to her need be that obvious or that direct. She is the victim here.

            We are talking about the very rare case where a rape results in a pregnancy and nothing was done medically immediately to keep the pregnancy from happening, or those measures where not successful.

            And we are talking about forcing a victim to be a victim yet again, and putting the guilt for the consequence of the rapist's acts on her. It is not an acceptable solution to the problem. She should have the right to decide if this pregnancy is carried to term. Especially if it is very early in the pregnancy.

            And the reality is, only the nutcases in Alabama have put this draconian a law in place (which Pat Robertson decried - you going to now claim he is not pro-life?) so if she can't survive the burden this rapist has put upon her, she can drive a few hundred miles in any direction and find a more supportive situation.

            Jim
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 09:15 AM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              One possibility is thst the trauma and stress of both the rape and being forced to carry the child to term could lead to suicide or suicidal ideation. This would be a ckear threat to her physical life. Such a consequence is not at all unlikely.

              Jim
              Women who get abortions are at a significantly higher risk of suicide than women who carry their children term. Women who are raped generally suffer from guilt and PTSD, and getting an abortion will only make things worse for her. If rape places a proverbial loaded gun on the table in front of the victim, getting an abortion will put it in her hand with the hammer cocked.

              Counseling and therapy would be a much better option and is unquestionably morally superior to murdering the innocent life who was brought into the world through no fault of his own.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                I didnt say the abortion didn't kill, I said in this case it is not murder. Is allowing an abortion when the mother's life is endangered by the pregnancy murder?

                Jim
                Your reasoning that it is not murder is specious, because it is based entirely on emotion. Pregnancy caused by rape no more endangers the mother's life than any other pregnancy. Your initial argument also asserted that it was okay as long as the termination was early in the pregnancy - so the mother's life is more endangered earlier rather than later?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Women who get abortions are at a significantly higher risk of suicide than women who carry their children term. Women who are raped generally suffer from guilt and PTSD, and getting an abortion will only make things worse for her. If rape places a proverbial loaded gun on the table in front of the victim, getting an abortion will put it in her hand with the hammer cocked.

                  Counseling and therapy would be a much better option and is unquestionably morally superior to murdering the innocent life who was brought into the world through no fault of his own.
                  I am not sure you or I can decide for any women subjected to a rape that results in a pregnancy which is the better option for her. That is why she needs to have the ability to evaluate in her case what consequences of the rape she must accept and which consequences she can not accept - where she has a choice.



                  I am not saying an abortion is always the best solution. What I am saying is that she is the victim here and if the only way she can survive this rape is to terminate the pregnancy, then she should have the right to make that decision because her life is endangered by that pregnancy. The person responsible for putting her - and the new life that is forming - into that awful situation is the rapist. She is innocent, regardless of which option she decides is the better of the two for her.

                  Jim
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 09:39 AM.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Your reasoning that it is not murder is specious, because it is based entirely on emotion. Pregnancy caused by rape no more endangers the mother's life than any other pregnancy. Your initial argument also asserted that it was okay as long as the termination was early in the pregnancy - so the mother's life is more endangered earlier rather than later?
                    And your incapacity to understand the women is the victim, and that what the rapist has done to her threatens her life on many different levels, is judgmental, cold, and indifferent. She is the victim - and most of the arguments she MUST carry the baby to term are nothing less than trying to label her a criminal for wanting to save her own life from what this criminal has done to her.

                    It is better early because in the early stages of development the baby has not yet appeared. Early enough, there is no person there yet, no matter how you generously you define person hood. And even though in the case where the life of the mother is threatened she has the right to end the pregnancy almost at any point, it is just easier on her if it is earlier.

                    Again - she is the victim here.

                    Jim
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 09:50 AM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      And your incapacity to understand the women is the victim, and that what the rapist has done to her threatens her life on many different levels, is judgmental, cold, and indifferent. She is the victim - and most of the arguments she MUST carry the baby to term are nothing less than trying to label her a criminal for wanting to save her own life from what this criminal has done to her.

                      It is better early because in the early stages of development the baby has not yet appeared. Early enough, there is no person there yet, no matter how you generously you define person hood. And even though in the case where the life of the mother is threatened she has the right to end the pregnancy almost at any point, it is just easier on her if it is earlier.

                      Again - she is the victim here.

                      Jim
                      Wow.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        It's not the baby's fault that the father was a complete scumbag!
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Although I understand why they might have thought it made sense, I tend to think the lack of an exception for rape and incest is over the top. We have laws that allow a rapist to demand parental rights after the fact. Not so sure it makes sense to force a woman that conceived due to rape to have to endure a lifetime of continuous rape (though his exercise of control over her life and the life of the child) by that person once they get out of prison. Incest is a very odd situation to start with, but again, the lack of an exception is forcing the victim to continue to be a victim for their entire life.

                          Jim
                          Adoption.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Adoption.
                            Yes - adoption is likely the best option for many in this situation.

                            Please do not lose sight of the fact we are talking about when abortion might be allowed, not when it is mandated, or even when it is recommended.

                            Please try to understand my argument is related to the fact without the Rape exception, the state is mandating that the VICTIM of a violent crime be victimized AGAIN by the state by mandating she not be able to take a safe mitigation readily available to prevent a pregnancy that was forced upon her VIOLENTLY. We are not in any way talking about abortion as birth control or abortion on demand. This is a special case that I believe is sufficiently close to to the well recognized exception for danger to the life of the mother that the exception itself should exist regardless of when you believe the fetus has the same rights associated with a baby that has been born.

                            Jim
                            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 11:07 AM.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              I am not sure you or I can decide for any women subjected to a rape that results in a pregnancy which is the better option for her. That is why she needs to have the ability to evaluate in her case what consequences of the rape she must accept and which consequences she can not accept - where she has a choice.



                              I am not saying an abortion is always the best solution. What I am saying is that she is the victim here and if the only way she can survive this rape is to terminate the pregnancy, then she should have the right to make that decision because her life is endangered by that pregnancy. The person responsible for putting her - and the new life that is forming - into that awful situation is the rapist. She is innocent, regardless of which option she decides is the better of the two for her.

                              Jim
                              The problem with your argument is that it is 100% an appeal to emotion.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                It's not the baby's fault that the father was a complete scumbag!
                                Neither is it the women's fault she was raped. You can't just ignore the situation this woman pregnant by her rapist finds herself in. Depending on who she is and where she is morally, psychologically, her life has been taken from her and a new one imposed upon her violently. This pregnancy is part of that. Demanding she carry the baby to term is victimizing her again. She is trapped, alone, afraid, beaten, traumatized. She needs help to carry that baby. Financially, Psychologically, Medically, Physically. She needs help to deal with the rape - Financially, Psychologically, Medically, Physically as well. Her entire life is turned around. And you are going to foist on her and her alone the full responsibility for all of that at the hands of her rapist?

                                No - you cannot do that. It is wrong.


                                Jim
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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