Originally posted by Jim B.
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Atheism And Moral Progress
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Originally posted by JimL View PostActually Jim, I think the assumption is yours, i.e. the assumption that there are other valid ways to know.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostA philosophical argument to be valid or ‘sound’ depends upon a true premise and philosophy alone is unable to provide this.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostActually Jim, I think the assumption is yours, i.e. the assumption that there are other valid ways to know.
You don't think there are other ways to know anything other than empirically?
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Originally posted by Jim B. View Post'Intrinsic' means having it within itself.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostThat is also a philosophical claim. I never said "philosophy alone".
I'm only saying that the statement "Empiricism alone is the only valid form of knowledge" contradicts itself because it's not an empirical finding.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostYou need to explain how the premise of a philosophical argent can be shown to be true. Because without a ‘true premise’ philosophy cannot arrive at a true conclusion about the real world.
Certainly, science needs philosophy but the bottom line is that philosophy alone can tell us nothing new about the real world. Unlike scientific methodology, it has no means to test and verify its premises.
All observation occurs within some system of concepts and the judgments made based on those observations are only as good as the system they occur in.
Locke said that our experience tells us about the nature of reality. But how can we know since we can't jump outside our experience to compare it to reality? He begs the question.
"There are no logically necessary truths about the world" is based on logic. It claims to have logically necessary knowledge about the nature of the world, so it contradicts itself.
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Originally posted by seer View PostI know Jim, so how do moral ideals have intrinsic worth? It seems like an assertion. Worth is something ascribe by rational beings, in this case rational moral beings.
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostIt's not a simplistic, linear relationship like you suggest. The relationship between observation and reflection or understanding is more like a give-and-take, more like a dialogue.Last edited by Tassman; 06-02-2019, 11:42 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostThese things have worth for conscious beings, of course, but those beings don't necessarily confer that worth onto them, imo. Think of the analogy of pleasure. If pleasure is intrinsically a good thing, there still need to be sentient creatures to experience the pleasure, but that doesn't mean those creatures are ascribing the worth onto pleasure. It's there already waiting for them, even though it has to be actualized by being experienced.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI know Jim, so how do moral ideals have intrinsic worth? It seems like an assertion. Worth is something ascribe by rational beings, in this case rational moral beings.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhat you are suggesting with your "give-and take" notion will result perhaps in a nice idea, or one that resonates, but no certainty that it's true. Because, philosophy alone is not equipped to tell us anything new about the real world. Unlike scientific methodology, it has no means to test and verify its premises. And without a verified ‘true premise’ the conclusion of a philosophical argument cannot be shown to be true.
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain Jim, I don't know what you mean - why is pleasure an intrinsically good thing? How do moral ideals have intrinsic worth?
I believe that God is the basis of consciousness, maybe that He is even "consciousness itself." And I also believe that consciousness is an intrinsically good thing. But why does all that necessarily mean that God creates the goodness of consciousness? Why can't it just be good in itself? Why can't it just be good to be healthy as opposed to sick? How does that diminish God's power?
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMoral ideals have survival value in the evolution of the human species as a social intelligent omnivore that requires a social cooperative social unites like families and tribal units to survive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
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