I hope that I don't make a bad first impression, but I don't think that I could ever be convinced that there is a God. Not one as we might think we know anyway. I would be willing to listen while anyone tried to change my mind though.

Hey Allen, I am going to move this to the Religion 101 forum.

03-04-2003 @ 03:25 AM
Allen:

I hope that I don't make a bad first impression, but I don't think that I could ever be convinced that there is a God. Not one as we might think we know anyway. I would be willing to listen while anyone tried to change my mind though.

What about God's existence? How do you understand God? I'll be more than happy to answer any questions that you have if I have the knowledge to :)

Vinine

Believe it or not, I once felt as you did, Allen. I was a typical atheist (and even partly an anti-theist!) for about a decade of my life and I didn't believe that I could be convinced that God existed, either. That's obviously changed. I am now a very strong-faithed, literal Bible-believing, Baptist, fundamentalist Christian. What's more, my life has unquestionably and undeniably benefitted from it. I have experienced personal (emotional and spiritual) change and growth and have received blessings in my life (a wife, children, reconciliation and deeper relationships with my family, a "permanent" home, a meaningful and fulfilling job, etc.). Could all those things have happened while I was an atheist? Possibly, but extremely unlikely. Also, they all definitely wouldn't have happened in the short period of time that they did.

But what convinced me that God exists? I honestly can't pick out one thing or point at one particular epiphanous moment. It was really a series of things that gradually brought me to the realization that God existed and was working in my life and the lives of others.

I can definitely say that no one "sat me down" (so to speak) and convinced me that God exists, though. I don't think that can happen. I firmly believe that no one can be argued into Heaven. (That is not to say that apologetics are useless, however.) The only person who can convince you that God exists is God Himself, but you have to be open to the message first. Certainly, others can help you find the way by sharing testimony and providing answers to some questions and concerns, but ultimately it is a personal decision based on personal experience.

I hope and pray you will honestly and openly seek God, Allen. It's the greatest experience in the world and you have nothing to lose but negative things. Contrary to conventional atheist "wisdom" (which is expounded by groups like the Freedom From Religion Foundation, American Atheists, Infidels.org, and the like), becoming and being a Christian doesn't make one stupid, ignorant, close-minded, arrogant, superior, cruel, or any other epithet they tend to use to describe Christians. In fact, see my signature for a quote from one person whom such atheists often quote to defend their beliefs or bash Christians' beliefs.

God bless you, Allen.

Hey Allen,
I would like to say I fully agree with Jinx. And I'd like you to know that I am a new believer, very new actually (only about five months), and I came from the exact same position as you. If you have a specific question you'd like to ask I'd be more then willing to answer it to the best of my ability. I may not be as learned as some people on this site, but I have empathy for you pal. I think I may also be able to stretch your mind a little bit
I hope you will come to the realization as I did, because He's waiting for you bud, there's no one in the world who loves you more.

For those who are curious what Jinx72 edited out of the Jefferson quote, here is the entire sentence:

The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.

Jefferson's beef was more with the clergy. Like Jefferson, most atheists don’t have any problem co-existing with people of various religions as long as it does not get mixed up with government. Earlier in that same letter Jefferson writes:

The eastern States will be the last to come over, on account of the dominion of the clergy, who had got a smell of union between Church and State, and began to indulge reveries which can never be realised in the present state of science.

There is nothing wrong with what I editted. In fact, the quote could also be written this way:

"The Christian religion ... is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind."

Yes, Jefferson rightly had problems with some of the clergy during those days, but his view of Christianity in and of itself was obviously very favorable.

I hope that I don't make a bad first impression, but I don't think that I could ever be convinced that there is a God. Not one as we might think we know anyway. I would be willing to listen while anyone tried to change my mind though.

No bad impressions here. Honest inquiry is appreicated.

Here's my humble statement.

One of the reasons why people have a problem believing in God is that its difficult to understand how God could be self-existant. Something just "always there" without ever having a begining is kind of confusing.

For the first objection I might say this. Do you believe that matter exists? Of course you do. Now the first law of thermodynamics says that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Even if matter could be created, then it could not have created itself.

So regarding the matter thing, matter must be self-existant, or have had super-natural cause. So people having problems with God just being "always there" might have to rule out the existance of matter and op for the Idea that everything is an illusion using the same agrument. Either a creator God is "always there" or matter is "always there."

The second problem people run into is that God is somehow beyond the natural. We can't place in box and study him like we could a rat or something. We can't measure his size like the elevations of a mountin and so on, so how can God exist if he is not discernable with our senses?

This line of thinking flows more from an anti-supernatural bias, and it operates on the assuption that if something is outside our five senses it can't exist. It's like a blind man saying "there is just now way there can be such a thing as 'color'" or a deaf man saying "but I just don't understand this thing called 'sound.'"

One shouldn't always be certain that there are no other senses out there that we don't posess. This was actually covered in Dune if you ever read it.


But ultimately, our reason really can't get us to God. God has to get a hold of us first.

Yes, Jefferson rightly had problems with some of the clergy during those days, but his view of Christianity in and of itself was obviously very favorable.

Yeah he really hated the Jesuits.

03-05-2003 @ 02:24 PM
Jinx72:
Yes, Jefferson rightly had problems with some of the clergy during those days, but his view of Christianity in and of itself was obviously very favorable.

Some? Why do you say that? He didn’t like any clergy at all as far as I know.

Actually, you should really take that quote in greater context:

If, indeed, they could have prevailed on us to view all advances in science as dangerous innovations, and to look back to the opinions and practices of our forefathers, instead of looking forward, for improvement, a promising groundwork would have been laid. But am in hopes their good sense will dictate to them, that since the mountain will not come to them, they had better go to the mountain: that they will find their interest in acquiescing in the liberty and science of their country, and that the Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.

Jefferson is not saying what he thinks of the Christian religion. He is describing how he hopes the clergy will think of it. He thinks it would be in their best interest to embrace science and liberty.

There are plenty of quotes depicting Jefferson’s unfavorable view of Christianity, as I presume you know based on your post above. So I’ll spare them. Jefferson would never be elected as President in this day and age. You might want to find someone different to quote.

Ummm...guys? Could we quit with the Thomas Jefferson and move back to Allen?

I'm one more person who empathizes with you, Allen. The problem I had wasn't with God's existence so much as with Christianity. I had a couple of those "religious experiences" you hear about on Oprah, but--here's the weird thing--I refused to accept them. Since I though Christianity was so idiotic, it was like having a divine communicae that the earth is flat. I spent some time trying to refute conservative Christianity (I had no problem calling myself a "Christian" as long as I didn't have to believe some of the crazy stuff, like that Jesus rose from the dead), but ended up convincing myself of it. It wasn't an all of a sudden realization, but a fairly long process wherein, I'm convinced, God slowly changed my heart to the point where I could accept him. For me it was C. S. Lewis that did it. I'd just ask that you try to be open about it. I mean, teenagers don't think there's any chance that their parent could possibly know what they're talking about, but they usually change their minds when they have kids of their own.

Hello to all, and particularly, Allen. This is my first post at this lovely forum. Up until now I've been reading a bit but I have kept silent. However, due in part to Dee Dee's repeated requests that such onlookers become involved, and in part to the fact that I am very interested in this subject, I have decided to add a few comments to the discussion.

Now, Allen, there is one large problem I find with your statement. In it, you claim that "I don't think I could ever be convinced that there is a God". I would understand if you said that you had not yet been given a good reason for believing God exists, and thus had not come to believe in His existence. However, stating that you doubt you could ever become convinced seems to be jumping the gun, because you have not even yet heard any sort of reason I or others may provide. However, I feel that you are being very reasonable by inquiring as to whether or not anyone could change your mind on the topic of the existence of God, so I am more than happy to discuss the issue with you.

In my mind, there are different reasons why an individual may come to believe in the existence of God. Intellectual reasons are a top possibility. Emotional reasons are another good one. For example, a person may decide to believe in God because they find comfort in His existence, need Him, etc. Personal experiences are another possiblity, but in my mind personal experiences are basically the same as intellectual reasons.

As it stands, I have few clues as to what sort of reasons for believing in God would be important to you. If you are on the lookout for intellectual reasons, then I personally love discussing what I believe are prime intellectual reasons for believing in God. If you are leaning more towards emotional reasons (meaning that you would perhaps believe in God if He filled a gap in your life or helped you get by), then I would love to write to you explaining why I think God adds a new level of meaning and value to every day.

Perhaps the real problem is that you have difficulty conceptualizing who or what God really is. Undoubtedly, God means different things to different people. As for me, I would define God as an eternally existing personal being, who is above and beyond the laws of the universe (Partly because He created the universe), and who has the ability to make rational decisions.

Indeed, the concept of God does seem bizarre. Every now and then, this causes me doubts as well. Whenever this occurs, I take time to think about how bizarre life, mere existence, is. Watch the actions of an animal and how they respond to their environment. Then I think about the trillions of cells working together to create that animal. Furthermore, think of the trillions of chemical reactions that occur to allow me to see that animal. It seems to me that existence itself, particularly of complex life, is bizarre to the max.

In fact, this leads directly into a very good intellectual reason for believing in God, which is that existence does not make sense unless a being outside the boundaries of our universe created the universe. Furthermore, the existence of highly complex life seems to point to a Creator. Obviously, this analysis is very brief, but I would be glad to get into it more deeply upon your request. In the end, it seems to me that one must believe in the existence of God based on intellect alone.

On top of this, God is a very important aspect of my life. He gives me a sense of moral accountability, inspires me to do good works, and gives me everlasting hope. I doubt that I would crumble into an emotional mess if I gave up my belief in God, but it is still very true, for me at least, that God helps me in many ways. Perhaps God could help you in the same ways, transforming you into an even better human being and giving you hope and confidence.

But let's face it, belief in God is no easy thing. I must give up many things due to my belief in God. For example, I must discard the idea that my personal sins go unchecked. I must surrender much of my pride and intellectual snobbery. I must deal with the difficulty of occasional doubt and insecurity.

Nobody should claim that accepting God is easy. Nevertheless, accepting God is tremendously important and will help you both intellectually and emotionally in the long run.

If you would like to delve any deeper into some of these issues, please ask. As it is, I am glad you are taking seriously the question of God's existence. At least you realize the importance of this question, which is something perhaps even some theists cannot claim.

03-04-2003 @ 03:25 AM
Allen:

I hope that I don't make a bad first impression, but I don't think that I could ever be convinced that there is a God. Not one as we might think we know anyway. I would be willing to listen while anyone tried to change my mind though.

I hope you are ready to be challenged, but as was said in a earlier post no one will ever argue someone into the kingdom though God can use Apologetics to open your heart! God will ultimately convince you himself. I will come into the discussion where I feel equipped.

In Christ,
Blake
:brow:

You exist. You are something. Does something come from nothing?

God doesn't exist. He was. is. and will be! The I AM.

God created what exists. For anything to be in existence logic says something (God) always was, is, and will be. The Creator.

My wristwatch did not always exist until it's designer and maker put it into that realm. The watch could not put itself into existence.

That something that is not existent could put itself into existence is illogical and doesn't compute. A designer and maker logically is required.

03-07-2003 @ 07:43 PM
ollie:

You exist. You are something. Does something come from nothing?

God doesn't exist. He was. is. and will be! The I AM.

God created what exists. For anything to be in existence logic says something (God) always was, is, and will be. The Creator.

My wristwatch did not always exist until it's designer and maker put it into that realm. The watch could not put itself into existence.

That something that is not existent could put itself into existence is illogical and doesn't compute. A designer and maker logically is required.

What if the designer lost control of his experiment and it spun out of his/her/its power? I am not saying that is what has happened, but it is very possible.

What started this whole thing is far beyond anything that we could ever comprehend, yet we try to find ways- mostly through religion.

I would have to respectfully disagree, Allen, I think that we ARE able to comprehend the cause for us being here. It seems evident to me that God is the only reasonable causal agent.

Since science and philosophy have determined that the universe is not infinitely old (For example, the problem of an actual infinite and the scientific problems with the oscillating, steady state, etc.- which are models that try to make this universe eternal), we must conclude that something caused it to come into being. But how could we determine the cause?

Simple, we need to look at the scenario and determine the attributes required of the causal mechanism. Here, I will defend three.

1. The causal agent must be eternally existing.
2. The causal agent must be above and beyond the laws of the universe.
3. The causal agent must be able to make decisions.

Now, if these three attributes are established, then the existence of God will be established, since an eternally existing personal entity that is above and beyond the laws of the universe is basically the definition of God. So, I will show that each of these is required for the creation of our universe:

1. The causal agent must be eternally existing.

It would have to be, otherwise the cause would require a cause, that cause would require a cause, ad infinitum. There would be an infinte regression of events, which is no answer at all and is illogical as well.

2. The causal agent must be above and beyond the laws of the universe.

This is also true, since the universe INCLUDES it's physical laws, the entity that created those laws must be seperate from the universe, otherwise the universe created itself! That is clearly absurd.

3. The causal agent must be able to make decisions.

An autonomous, natural cause does not make decisions. Rather, it responds to conditions. For example, water freezes at a certain temperature. When the conditions arise (cold temperature) that cause water to freeze, water freezes. However, a personal being has the ability to make decisions. God, if He is to be considered God at all, must have the ability to make decisions, such as creating the universe.

It just so happens that this is an essential attribute of the causal agent needed. This is because an eternally existing autonomous (natural) cause could not will something into existence at a certain time period. Because if the "conditions" arose in which the autonomous causal mechanism triggered the creation of the universe say, 10 billion years ago, we must ask why these conditions were not met earlier, if in fact there was an infinite amount of time for the conditions to come into place. Therefore, an automatic natural cause would have created the universe an infinity ago, which clearly contradicts scientific and philosophical knowledge.

However, an entity with the ability to make decisions can will the universe into existence a finite time ago in the past, thus causing this universe to come into being.


So, to me anyways, it appears that God is the best explanation for the existence of the universe, and this is one of the prime intellectual reasons for believing in God that I mentioned earlier.