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Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Please step me through, how you came to your conclusion.
    You won't believe me even if I do, but here is what the Bible says:

    Matt 7:13
    Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

    This says destruction, not eternal torment.

    Matthew 10:28
    Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

    Matthew 13:30
    First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
    The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
    So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
    Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

    Luke 13:3
    I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
    Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
    What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

    Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
    and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


    John 8:21
    Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
    Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Note: Death, not eternal torment.

    1 Corinthians 3:17
    If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
    Destroy, not torture alive forever.

    Galations 6:8
    For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
    phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

    The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

    2 Thessalonians 1:9
    These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
    Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
    From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

    Hebrews 10:26-27,
    For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
    Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

    Hebrews 10:39
    But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

    James 1:15b
    and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
    Death, not eternal torture.

    James 4:12a
    There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
    Destroy, not eternally torture.

    2 Peter 2:1
    But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
    Destruction, not eternal torment.

    2 Peter 3:7-9
    But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
    8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

    1 John 5:12
    He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
    How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

    Jude 5
    Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

    Jude 10
    But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
    Revelation 2:11b
    He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
    The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

    Revelation 17:8
    The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

    Revelation 18:8
    For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
    The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

    Revelation 20:14-15
    Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
    John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

    Revelation 21:8
    “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
    They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

    (all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Timothy View Post
      You won't believe me even if I do, but here is what the Bible says:

      Matt 7:13
      Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

      This says destruction, not eternal torment.

      Matthew 10:28
      Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

      Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

      Matthew 13:30
      First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
      The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
      So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
      Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

      Luke 13:3
      I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
      Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
      What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

      Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
      and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

      John 3:16
      For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

      So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


      John 8:21
      Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
      Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

      Romans 6:23
      For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
      Note: Death, not eternal torment.

      1 Corinthians 3:17
      If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
      Destroy, not torture alive forever.

      Galations 6:8
      For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
      phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

      The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

      2 Thessalonians 1:9
      These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
      Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
      From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

      Hebrews 10:26-27,
      For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
      Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

      Hebrews 10:39
      But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

      James 1:15b
      and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
      Death, not eternal torture.

      James 4:12a
      There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
      Destroy, not eternally torture.

      2 Peter 2:1
      But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
      Destruction, not eternal torment.

      2 Peter 3:7-9
      But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
      8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

      Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

      1 John 5:12
      He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
      How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

      Jude 5
      Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

      Jude 10
      But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
      Revelation 2:11b
      He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
      The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

      Revelation 17:8
      The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

      Revelation 18:8
      For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
      The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

      Revelation 20:14-15
      Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
      John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

      Revelation 21:8
      “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
      They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

      (all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)
      Great. I have one problem with all of this, it still does not explain how you came to this conclusion. If that which you just presented are the sole reasons. Then I need to ask, why is the view,( aside from the fact your understanding it to be the Biblical view), important to you personally? Let me put it like this, IF none of those references in fact excluded the eternal suffering of the lost, would you change your mind? Now I said IF eternal suffering is true and really consistent with all the above holy scriptures. I understand you contend the concept of eternal suffering is not Biblical. Which is the whole reason we disagree on this matter. Thank you for your patience with me. [BTW, me being wrong about eternal suffering will not make eternal suffering true. You do understand that, do you not? As I had stated, and attempted to explain, I understand the eternal suffering of dead souls to be the Biblical view.]
      Last edited by 37818; 12-02-2014, 10:02 PM.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Great. I have one problem with all of this, it still does not explain how you came to this conclusion. If that which you just presented are the sole reasons. Then I need to ask, why is the view,( aside from the fact your understanding it to be the Biblical view), important to you personally? Let me put it like this, IF none of those references in fact excluded the eternal suffering of the lost, would you change your mind? Now I said IF eternal suffering is true and really consistent with all the above holy scriptures. I understand you contend the concept of eternal suffering is not Biblical. Which is the whole reason we disagree on this matter. Thank you for your patience with me. [BTW, me being wrong about eternal suffering will not make eternal suffering true. You do understand that, do you not? As I had stated, and attempted to explain, I understand the eternal suffering of dead souls to be the Biblical view.]
        You asked me for the reasons that I believe that the penalty for sin is death and not eternal conscious torment in hell. The reason I believe this is because it is what the Bible teaches. Do I need a different reason than the Bible consistently says that the lost will be destroyed and never once says that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever? My reason for believing that the wicked will be destroyed is that I believe the Bible is true.

        How did you come to your conclusion that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell?
        Did you really read John 3:16, and think "Well, sometimes the Greek word that is translated perish is sometimes translated as lost in other verses where it is used so it must not mean that those who do not believe in Jesus will really perish, they will be lost instead. Never mind that the verse also says that those who do not perish will have eternal life"? I find that a little hard to believe. I think the truth is that you believe in ECT because that is what you think the Bible teaches, because that is what you have always believed, and if anyone tells you different, you will explain away anything they say, no matter how much proof there is that ECT is not Biblical. I think your mind is made up and closed on this matter. I also think that in the back of your mind, you think that anything other than ECT is cult teaching.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Timothy View Post
          You asked me for the reasons that I believe that the penalty for sin is death and not eternal conscious torment in hell. The reason I believe this is because it is what the Bible teaches. Do I need a different reason than the Bible consistently says that the lost will be destroyed and never once says that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever? My reason for believing that the wicked will be destroyed is that I believe the Bible is true.
          The word of God being true is not at issue. Our differing understanding is at issue.

          Consider the following:
          ". . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . .' -- Matthew 25:41.
          ". . . And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. . . . " -- Revelation 20:10.
          Then there is:
          ". . . these shall go away into everlasting punishment: . . ." -- Matthew 25:46.
          ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

          How did you come to your conclusion that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell?
          The wages of sin is death. And this death is the opposite of eternal life through Christ (Romans 6:23). And those who are cast into the lake of fire receive the "second death" where both body and soul die together. And it is identified as the place of " outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 13:42; Matthew 13:50; Matthew 22:13; Matthew 24:51; Matthew 25:30; Luke 13:28.) And the fire is not quenched. (Matthew 3:12; Matthew 18:8; Mark 9:43; Mark 9:48; Luke 3:17.) Show me where this was to come to an end for the perishing.
          Did you really read John 3:16, and think "Well, sometimes the Greek word that is translated perish is sometimes translated as lost in other verses where it is used so it must not mean that those who do not believe in Jesus will really perish, they will be lost instead. Never mind that the verse also says that those who do not perish will have eternal life"? I find that a little hard to believe. I think the truth is that you believe in ECT because that is what you think the Bible teaches, because that is what you have always believed, and if anyone tells you different, you will explain away anything they say, no matter how much proof there is that ECT is not Biblical. I think your mind is made up and closed on this matter. I also think that in the back of your mind, you think that anything other than ECT is cult teaching.
          No. The word translated "perish" is the same word translated "lost" (2 Corinthians 4:3) the same word translated "destroy" (Matthew 10:28). Never means to become nonexistent. But it can have the meaning of being "gone" (Luke 15:4). Never means annihilation as you suppose. Death always means a separation from life. And in hell not ceasing being what is dead.
          Last edited by 37818; 12-03-2014, 10:34 PM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Okay 3, you believe what you you believe the Bible says and I will believe what I believe the Bible says. We don't have to convince each other that we are right.

            But your statement that destruction never means annihilation is in error. Destruction and Annihilation mean the same thing. Look up Annihilation in a dictionary. But to avoid confusion, I don't use the term "Annihilation", I use the Biblical term "Destruction" for the fate of the unrepentant.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Timothy View Post
              Okay 3, you believe what you you believe the Bible says and I will believe what I believe the Bible says. We don't have to convince each other that we are right.
              Good. But that does not mean I do not want to understand your view further. OK?
              But your statement that destruction never means annihilation is in error. Destruction and Annihilation mean the same thing. Look up Annihilation in a dictionary. But to avoid confusion, I don't use the term "Annihilation", I use the Biblical term "Destruction" for the fate of the unrepentant.
              Please show me the Greek word as used in the NT where it has that explicit connotation, excluding mere ruin or loss. It is not the word used in John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 4:3, Matthew 10:28 being that it is used to refer to sheep being gone, Luke 15:4, etc. So what word is it? Where is it used?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Please show me the Greek word as used in the NT where it has that explicit connotation, excluding mere ruin or loss. It is not the word used in John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 4:3, Matthew 10:28 being that it is used to refer to sheep being gone, Luke 15:4, etc. So what word is it? Where is it used?
                Okay, the words for destruction in Greek are apollumi and olethron. The SAME word that is used in Matthew 10:28 for destroy, ἀπολέσαι (from the root word ἀπόλλυμι) is used in Matthew 2:13 where Herod was attempting to destroy Jesus buy attempting to kill him. You need to prove that apolesai does NOT mean destroy in order to prove your point, and you can't do that, because that IS what it means.

                I know that you do not want to understand my view further. So let's both walk away from this discussion. You may remain in error if you want to.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Timothy View Post
                  Okay, the words for destruction in Greek are apollumi and olethron. The SAME word that is used in Matthew 10:28 for destroy, ἀπολέσαι (from the root word ἀπόλλυμι) is used in Matthew 2:13 where Herod was attempting to destroy Jesus buy attempting to kill him. You need to prove that apolesai does NOT mean destroy in order to prove your point, and you can't do that, because that IS what it means.

                  I know that you do not want to understand my view further. So let's both walk away from this discussion. You may remain in error if you want to.
                  You did not prove "destroy" means to make "nonexistent" annihilate. The word translated "destroy" as you know is translated "perish" and "lost." I do not need to prove "destroy" means "destroy." That is not at issue. Where "destroy" means to annihilate, you have not given a Biblical example demanding that understanding.

                  The only thing you presented, was "destroy" means to "kill." And I have no problem with that either.

                  Annihilate
                  ANNI'HILATE, v.t. [L. ad and nihilum, nothing, of ne, not, and hilum, a trifle.]

                  1. To reduce to nothing; to destroy the existence of.

                  No human power can annihilate matter.

                  2. To destroy the form or peculiar distinctive properties, so that the specific thing no longer exists; as, to annihilate a forest by cutting and carrying away the trees, though the timber may still exist; to annihilate a house by demolishing the structure.
                  Last edited by 37818; 12-06-2014, 10:44 AM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    You did not prove "destroy" means to make "nonexistent" annihilate. The word translated "destroy" as you know is translated "perish" and "lost." I do not need to prove "destroy" means "destroy." That is not at issue. Where "destroy" means to annihilate, you have not given a Biblical example demanding that understanding.

                    The only thing you presented, was "destroy" means to "kill." And I have no problem with that either.

                    Annihilate
                    ANNI'HILATE, v.t. [L. ad and nihilum, nothing, of ne, not, and hilum, a trifle.]

                    1. To reduce to nothing; to destroy the existence of.

                    No human power can annihilate matter.

                    2. To destroy the form or peculiar distinctive properties, so that the specific thing no longer exists; as, to annihilate a forest by cutting and carrying away the trees, though the timber may still exist; to annihilate a house by demolishing the structure.
                    It is enough that you and I agree that "destroy" means "destroy". It is my belief that the unrepentant are destroyed instead of being kept conscious forever being tormented.
                    If you have a problem with the word "annihilationism" or "annihilate", then don't use that word. It is enough for me to believe what scripture explicitly says, that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. It should be enough for you as well. I am assuming that you are also a Bible-Believing-Christian. I don't need to add to scripture and say that not only are the wicked destroyed, they are annihilated. And you do not need to add to scripture by saying something like not only are the wicked destroyed, but they are also kept preserved undestroyed forever in hell being tormented alive while they are dead.

                    Can you and I come to an agreement that the wicked are destroyed and not tormented alive forever in hell?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Timothy View Post
                      It is enough that you and I agree that "destroy" means "destroy". It is my belief that the unrepentant are destroyed instead of being kept conscious forever being tormented.
                      If you have a problem with the word "annihilationism" or "annihilate", then don't use that word. It is enough for me to believe what scripture explicitly says, that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. . . .
                      To say, "be no more" is no different than saying "to be annihilated."

                      It should be enough for you as well. I am assuming that you are also a Bible-Believing-Christian. I don't need to add to scripture and say that not only are the wicked destroyed, they are annihilated. And you do not need to add to scripture by saying something like not only are the wicked destroyed, but they are also kept preserved undestroyed forever in hell being tormented alive while they are dead.
                      Well you distort the ECT view. And you further distort the view I hold. How should I change my mind when you lie about the view I have held?

                      Can you and I come to an agreement that the wicked are destroyed and not tormented alive forever in hell?
                      Not going to happen. Here is why: You distort the view you disagree with. Add to the fact, you do not deal with the issues which give rise to the view you believe is not Biblical. You retort to your definitions, disallowing the true Biblical usage behind the words of the translation.

                      It is not hard to make your case, if it is true, as you contend. Set the two views side by side. Claim by claim.

                      Give valid answers for the questions which the defenders of ECT make. Remember the lost sheep? I tried to provide a plausible argument for you, using the word "gone" regarding the lost sheep.

                      Here is the question: Jesus warned, "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." Now explain why once one is died, should fear God for casting him/her in hell? Make sense of that, would you please.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        To say, "be no more" is no different than saying "to be annihilated."

                        Well you distort the ECT view. And you further distort the view I hold. How should I change my mind when you lie about the view I have held?

                        Not going to happen. Here is why: You distort the view you disagree with. Add to the fact, you do not deal with the issues which give rise to the view you believe is not Biblical. You retort to your definitions, disallowing the true Biblical usage behind the words of the translation.

                        It is not hard to make your case, if it is true, as you contend. Set the two views side by side. Claim by claim.

                        Give valid answers for the questions which the defenders of ECT make. Remember the lost sheep? I tried to provide a plausible argument for you, using the word "gone" regarding the lost sheep.

                        Here is the question: Jesus warned, "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." Now explain why once one is died, should fear God for casting him/her in hell? Make sense of that, would you please.
                        Jesus explained why we should fear God whom "after he has killed has the power to cast into hell". Read Matthew 10:28, we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. We should fear being destroyed in hell. It's makes perfect sense, if those who are sent to hell truly are destroyed there, as I believe. Does that make sense to you now brother?

                        Also, I agree with you that "To say, "be no more" is no different than saying "to be annihilated."". And this is exactly what the Bible says will happen to the wicked. "The wicked will be no more". I'm not making this up, that is exactly what the Bible says in Psalm 37:10. You can see it for yourself.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Timothy View Post
                          Jesus explained why we should fear God whom "after he has killed has the power to cast into hell". Read Matthew 10:28, we should fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. We should fear being destroyed in hell. It's makes perfect sense, if those who are sent to hell truly are destroyed there, as I believe. Does that make sense to you now brother?
                          If one has been killed, one is dead, right? So how is one to fear having both the body and soul being aready dead to be destroyed?
                          Also, I agree with you that "To say, "be no more" is no different than saying "to be annihilated."". And this is exactly what the Bible says will happen to the wicked. "The wicked will be no more". I'm not making this up, that is exactly what the Bible says in Psalm 37:10. You can see it for yourself.
                          Yeah, from the earth (v.9).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            If one has been killed, one is dead, right? So how is one to fear having both the body and soul being aready dead to be destroyed?
                            Because man is NOT able to destroy both body and soul, so we should not fear man, But God IS able to destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna so we should fear that.
                            I honestly do not know why you can't understand this. It is EXACTLY what Jesus said.


                            Yeah, from the earth (v.9).
                            No, Psalm 37 doesn't say that the wicked will be destroyed FROM THE EARTH. It says that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the doctrine of Conditional Immortality states. The reason is that the doctrine of Conditional Immortality comes directly from the Bible.

                            Can you tell me what the doctrine of Conditional Immortality says in your own words?

                            No, Psalm

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Timothy View Post
                              Because man is NOT able to destroy both body and soul, so we should not fear man, But God IS able to destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna so we should fear that.
                              I honestly do not know why you can't understand this. It is EXACTLY what Jesus said.
                              Jesus said, "after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell." After they are dead, they are cast into hell. After they are dead, then after they are killed, the body and soul are destroyed. (Luke 12:5.)


                              No, Psalm 37 doesn't say that the wicked will be destroyed FROM THE EARTH. It says that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the doctrine of Conditional Immortality states. The reason is that the doctrine of Conditional Immortality comes directly from the Bible.
                              ". . . For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. . . ." -- Psalm 37:9-11.




                              Can you tell me what the doctrine of Conditional Immortality says in your own words?
                              The word of God teaches that the sinner's soul shall die. And only those who know God personally through Jesus Christ His sent Son shall possess eternal life and whose souls shall then therefore have become immortal.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tim
                                Can you tell me what the doctrine of Conditional Immortality says in your own words?
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                The word of God teaches that the sinner's soul shall die. And only those who know God personally through Jesus Christ His sent Son shall possess eternal life and whose souls shall then therefore have become immortal.
                                Thank you. That is what I believe. Is this also your belief? The reason I asked, is because I wanted to know if someone who didn't accept the doctrine of Conditional Immortality could describe it without repeating what the Bible says. I believe the doctrine of Conditional Immortality is described perfectly throughout the Bible.

                                Comment

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