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Originally posted by simplicio View PostDo you think that we would have been better off without the me too movement and the changes it spawned?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt hit a fever pitch early on when liberals thought they could use it to take down Trump, but when their fellow liberals were the ones getting caught it the crossfire, things became more muted. Certainly the mainstream media started paying less attention.
But the lack of the glaring spotlight doesn't lessen the effect a movement is still having.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostLike virtually every movement they may start with good intentions but soon run afoul of their own 'excessive excesses.'
Kobe Bryant's defense consisted of trashing the victim, and the media was star struck, playing into the hoary old rape myths, women ask for it, women make charges for fame and fortune, no virtuous wman would dare allow herself be in such a situation. Doesn't sound any different from how the Body of Christ reacts.
I think me too has made a positive impact, the days of such advice as relax and enjoy the inevitable are long gone.Last edited by simplicio; 02-02-2020, 12:43 AM.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostOkay. Just what are the excessive excesses?
Originally posted by simplicio View PostIs a flood of women demanding the SBC take a stand against sex abuse within the church excessive? In 2008 the SBC rejected a proposal to adopt some form of a stand against sexual predators within the church ; in 2019 the flood of women demanding something be done resulted in the SBC in enacting some reforms.
Kobe Bryant's defense consisted of trashing the victim, and the media was star struck, playing into the hoary old rape myths, women ask for it, women make charges for fame and fortune, no virtuous wman would dare allow herself be in such a situation. Doesn't sound any different from how the Body of Christ reacts.
I think me too has made a positive impact, the days of such advice as relax and enjoy the inevitable are long gone.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhen the mere accusation is sufficient evidence of guilt is an example of "excessive excesses."
It sure sounds like you really hate Christians. Deconvert recently?My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostUnfortunately, when it comes to the abuse of women, many conservative churches adopt policies and attitudes that encourage it rather than deter it.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhen the mere accusation is sufficient evidence of guilt is an example of "excessive excesses."
It sure sounds like you really hate Christians. Deconvert recently?
Is there really any difference in how the church has responded to the problems? The Body of Christ is not just another institution within a secular society.
In fact, your argument does sound like you really think that a real Christian would not dare to hold the churches to the same standards we demand of secular institutions.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostSo, nothing to be learned from the me too, church too, silence is not spiritual hashtag stuff? Not sure that noting the similarities in how the Christian churches and institutions respond is any kind of sign that I hate Christians or have deconverted.
Is there really any difference in how the church has responded to the problems? The Body of Christ is not just another institution within a secular society.
In fact, your argument does sound like you really think that a real Christian would not dare to hold the churches to the same standards we demand of secular institutions.
And you avoided my question
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSurely you're going to support that assertion with some sort of objective evidence, right?
Are you really unfamiliar with the expose last year by houston chronicle and San Antonio Express? https://www.houstonchronicle.com/loc...buse-of-faith/
Twenty years ago the scandal broke into the open about the Catholic Church, since then numerous similar stories broke out into the open about other institutions, secular and religious. Some churches have attempted to institute reforms, setting policies to ensure appropriate responses, others have resisted.
The scandal had significant ramifications within the SBC; I think it unlikely that the reforms at the annual convention would have occurred without those stories becoming public.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSurely you're going to support that assertion with some sort of objective evidence, right?
https://theologyforwomen.org/2016/06...and-women.html
Piper is quite popular, especially with neocalvinists in the SBC and conservative Presbyterian circles. Grudem's "systematic theology" is a classic and well respected text book on the subject of its title.
But that is by no means where it stops. For example, it is not uncommon to find conservative churches demanding forgiveness and reconciliation from an abused women seeking a divorce for her own safety or the safety of her chdren. I've seen situations where in such situations the husband is restored even to places of authority while the wife is essentially ostracised for not being able to trust this person would revert to the abusive behavior (which they often do)
But in general, conservative churches hold to the submission of women to the husband and the limitation of positions of authority in the church in a way that often leads to or can encourage abuse of women amongst its members. It is very, very unlikely for a congregation or denomination to hold to or especially to emphasize those admonitions without that being the inevitable result.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-03-2020, 06:50 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWow. So that was what you managed to extract from my post
And you avoided my question
You highlighted my comment on similarities between Christians'defensive reactions to charges of abuse and the Kobe Bryant offensive defense on the rape allegation. You may not find a problem with the similarities, but I do. And so do many other Christians.
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Originally posted by simplicio View Postyes, I avoided it, since I do not think that is deserves a response. But stop and think about what it says about your views on what is proper for a Christian to do, as well as what is improper, even outside the realm of what it thought prudent for the Christian to contemplate.
You highlighted my comment on similarities between Christians'defensive reactions to charges of abuse and the Kobe Bryant offensive defense on the rape allegation. You may not find a problem with the similarities, but I do. And so do many other Christians.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-03-2020, 06:59 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe teachings of john piper, Wayne grudem and Bruce ware on the eternal subordination of the son would be a good start:
https://theologyforwomen.org/2016/06...and-women.html
Piper is quite popular, especially with neocalvinists in the SBC and conservative Presbyterian circles. Grudem's "systematic theology" is a classic and well respected text book on the subject of its title.
But that is by no means where it stops. For example, it is not uncommon to find conservative churches demanding forgiveness and reconciliation from an abused women seeking a divorce for her own safety or the safety of her chdren. I've seen situations where in such situations the husband is restored even to places of authority while the wife is essentially ostracised for not being able to trust this person would revert to the abusive behavior (which they often do)
But in general, conservative churches hold to the submission of women to the husband and the limitation of positions of authority in the church in a way that often leads to or can encourage abuse of women amongst its members. It is very, very unlikely for a congregation or denomination to hold to or especially to emphasize those admonitions without that being the inevitable result.
My own church, for example, holds to a fairly strict interpretation of scripture, including the admonition that wives should submit to their husbands, and that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, and our pastors and deacons are exclusively male with women serving in a support role, and I can tell you for a fact that this has not led to women in the congregation being abused, so it's not an inevitable outcome like you imply.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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