RIP #MeToo

[Mountain Man]

I have to admit that I enjoy seeing politically-correct progressives eating each other. The 'correctness' is mostly important to them so it affects outsiders less (like them calling Howard Stern a chauvinist for years and he'd laugh about it, although he's sliding into their camp these days).

As I heard it said recently, Howard Stern has become so safe that not even Hillary Clinton is afraid to be interviewed by him.

[Ronson]

As I heard it said recently, Howard Stern has become so safe that not even Hillary Clinton is afraid to be interviewed by him.

He used to be a libertarian back in the 90s. He sold out.

[rogue06]

Do you think that we would have been better off without the me too movement and the changes it spawned?

Like virtually every movement they may start with good intentions but soon run afoul of their own 'excessive excesses.'

[rogue06]

It hit a fever pitch early on when liberals thought they could use it to take down Trump, but when their fellow liberals were the ones getting caught it the crossfire, things became more muted. Certainly the mainstream media started paying less attention.

The media treats movements like fads (and they're more right than wrong in so doing), and are very quick to latch on to and move on to the next "new thing." It's the nature of the beast that thrives on "news."

But the lack of the glaring spotlight doesn't lessen the effect a movement is still having.

[simplicio]

Like virtually every movement they may start with good intentions but soon run afoul of their own 'excessive excesses.'

Okay. Just what are the excessive excesses? Is a flood of women demanding the SBC take a stand against sex abuse within the church excessive? In 2008 the SBC rejected a proposal to adopt some form of a stand against sexual predators within the church ; in 2019 the flood of women demanding something be done resulted in the SBC in enacting some reforms.

Kobe Bryant's defense consisted of trashing the victim, and the media was star struck, playing into the hoary old rape myths, women ask for it, women make charges for fame and fortune, no virtuous wman would dare allow herself be in such a situation. Doesn't sound any different from how the Body of Christ reacts.

I think me too has made a positive impact, the days of such advice as relax and enjoy the inevitable are long gone.

[rogue06]

Okay. Just what are the excessive excesses?

When the mere accusation is sufficient evidence of guilt is an example of "excessive excesses."

Is a flood of women demanding the SBC take a stand against sex abuse within the church excessive? In 2008 the SBC rejected a proposal to adopt some form of a stand against sexual predators within the church ; in 2019 the flood of women demanding something be done resulted in the SBC in enacting some reforms.

Kobe Bryant's defense consisted of trashing the victim, and the media was star struck, playing into the hoary old rape myths, women ask for it, women make charges for fame and fortune, no virtuous wman would dare allow herself be in such a situation. Doesn't sound any different from how the Body of Christ reacts.

I think me too has made a positive impact, the days of such advice as relax and enjoy the inevitable are long gone.

It sure sounds like you really hate Christians. Deconvert recently?

[oxmixmudd]

When the mere accusation is sufficient evidence of guilt is an example of "excessive excesses."


It sure sounds like you really hate Christians. Deconvert recently?

Unfortunately, when it comes to the abuse of women, many conservative churches adopt policies and attitudes that encourage it rather than deter it.

[Mountain Man]

Unfortunately, when it comes to the abuse of women, many conservative churches adopt policies and attitudes that encourage it rather than deter it.

Surely you're going to support that assertion with some sort of objective evidence, right?

[simplicio]

When the mere accusation is sufficient evidence of guilt is an example of "excessive excesses."


It sure sounds like you really hate Christians. Deconvert recently?

So, nothing to be learned from the me too, church too, silence is not spiritual hashtag stuff? Not sure that noting the similarities in how the Christian churches and institutions respond is any kind of sign that I hate Christians or have deconverted.

Is there really any difference in how the church has responded to the problems? The Body of Christ is not just another institution within a secular society.

In fact, your argument does sound like you really think that a real Christian would not dare to hold the churches to the same standards we demand of secular institutions.

[rogue06]

So, nothing to be learned from the me too, church too, silence is not spiritual hashtag stuff? Not sure that noting the similarities in how the Christian churches and institutions respond is any kind of sign that I hate Christians or have deconverted.

Is there really any difference in how the church has responded to the problems? The Body of Christ is not just another institution within a secular society.

In fact, your argument does sound like you really think that a real Christian would not dare to hold the churches to the same standards we demand of secular institutions.

Wow. So that was what you managed to extract from my post


And you avoided my question

[simplicio]

Surely you're going to support that assertion with some sort of objective evidence, right?

Where I disagree with oxmixmud is that I do not see any significant difference in whether the church is conservative or liberal in how they respond to allegations or evidence, the difference is in policies enacted.

Are you really unfamiliar with the expose last year by houston chronicle and San Antonio Express? https://www.houstonchronicle.com/loc...buse-of-faith/

Twenty years ago the scandal broke into the open about the Catholic Church, since then numerous similar stories broke out into the open about other institutions, secular and religious. Some churches have attempted to institute reforms, setting policies to ensure appropriate responses, others have resisted.

The scandal had significant ramifications within the SBC; I think it unlikely that the reforms at the annual convention would have occurred without those stories becoming public.

[oxmixmudd]

Surely you're going to support that assertion with some sort of objective evidence, right?

The teachings of john piper, Wayne grudem and Bruce ware on the eternal subordination of the son would be a good start:

https://theologyforwomen.org/2016/06...and-women.html

Piper is quite popular, especially with neocalvinists in the SBC and conservative Presbyterian circles. Grudem's "systematic theology" is a classic and well respected text book on the subject of its title.

But that is by no means where it stops. For example, it is not uncommon to find conservative churches demanding forgiveness and reconciliation from an abused women seeking a divorce for her own safety or the safety of her chdren. I've seen situations where in such situations the husband is restored even to places of authority while the wife is essentially ostracised for not being able to trust this person would revert to the abusive behavior (which they often do)

But in general, conservative churches hold to the submission of women to the husband and the limitation of positions of authority in the church in a way that often leads to or can encourage abuse of women amongst its members. It is very, very unlikely for a congregation or denomination to hold to or especially to emphasize those admonitions without that being the inevitable result.

[simplicio]

Wow. So that was what you managed to extract from my post


And you avoided my question

yes, I avoided it, since I do not think that is deserves a response. But stop and think about what it says about your views on what is proper for a Christian to do, as well as what is improper, even outside the realm of what it thought prudent for the Christian to contemplate.

You highlighted my comment on similarities between Christians'defensive reactions to charges of abuse and the Kobe Bryant offensive defense on the rape allegation. You may not find a problem with the similarities, but I do. And so do many other Christians.

[oxmixmudd]

yes, I avoided it, since I do not think that is deserves a response. But stop and think about what it says about your views on what is proper for a Christian to do, as well as what is improper, even outside the realm of what it thought prudent for the Christian to contemplate.

You highlighted my comment on similarities between Christians'defensive reactions to charges of abuse and the Kobe Bryant offensive defense on the rape allegation. You may not find a problem with the similarities, but I do. And so do many other Christians.

And yet there are countless instances where, even in cases of child sexual abuse. Churches of all stripes and colors have moved to suppress knowledge of such acts and protect leaders engaging in them. It is no less true for male abuse of women by leaders or husbands in churches. And some of that stems from the belief women should submit themselves to the male authority in the church and their homes which is the inevitable conclusion of a literal reading of the text that is not willing to consider the possible cultural artifacts reflected in the text - in other words, conservative Christian Theology

[Mountain Man]

The teachings of john piper, Wayne grudem and Bruce ware on the eternal subordination of the son would be a good start:

https://theologyforwomen.org/2016/06...and-women.html

Piper is quite popular, especially with neocalvinists in the SBC and conservative Presbyterian circles. Grudem's "systematic theology" is a classic and well respected text book on the subject of its title.

But that is by no means where it stops. For example, it is not uncommon to find conservative churches demanding forgiveness and reconciliation from an abused women seeking a divorce for her own safety or the safety of her chdren. I've seen situations where in such situations the husband is restored even to places of authority while the wife is essentially ostracised for not being able to trust this person would revert to the abusive behavior (which they often do)

But in general, conservative churches hold to the submission of women to the husband and the limitation of positions of authority in the church in a way that often leads to or can encourage abuse of women amongst its members. It is very, very unlikely for a congregation or denomination to hold to or especially to emphasize those admonitions without that being the inevitable result.

You seem to have misunderstood what I was asking. You claim that "many conservative churches adopt policies and attitudes that encourage [the abuse of women] rather than deter it". I have no doubt that you can point to isolated examples, but that isn't what I asked. I'm not seeing anything here to support your assertion that this is the case in "many conservatives churches". Of course now you're subtly moving the goalposts by claiming that it's only true "in general" and then, apparently, only if people misunderstand and misapply certain Biblical teachings.

My own church, for example, holds to a fairly strict interpretation of scripture, including the admonition that wives should submit to their husbands, and that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, and our pastors and deacons are exclusively male with women serving in a support role, and I can tell you for a fact that this has not led to women in the congregation being abused, so it's not an inevitable outcome like you imply.