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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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If you have a cell that just died, it is materially exactly the same as it was 1 femto-second before it died. Physically it is exactly the same. So "life" is not a material thing. But it is an immaterial thing. Just like an idea is an immaterial thing. It has existence but no material substance.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf you have a cell that just died, it is materially exactly the same as it was 1 femto-second before it died. Physically it is exactly the same. So "life" is not a material thing. But it is an immaterial thing. Just like an idea is an immaterial thing. It has existence but no material substance."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostUm, Sparky, the chemical processes are different. Now, that's a conditional difference but remember Jim isn't a formal materialist - it's his worldview, yes, but not his philosophy per se. I don't think you can get there from here.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe chemical reactions might stop but the very same molecules and atoms are there. The "animation" stops. Life is the animating force.
It's a blind spot - yes, Jim is definitely a materialist but no, not a formal one - so he can't get past material reality but can accept conditional reality (which a formal materialist wouldn't). He's not just digging in - he really cannot see how the immaterial differs from the material. At least, not yet."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostI know - it's a conditional difference but only a formal materialist would have the issue - Jim won't since he accepts conditional reality. The analogy won't work for him.
It's a blind spot - yes, Jim is definitely a materialist but no, not a formal one - so he can't get past material reality but can accept conditional reality (which a formal materialist wouldn't). He's not just digging in - he really cannot see how the immaterial differs from the material. At least, not yet.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI have no idea what you just said."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostIt does make sense, Jim. This isn't where the analogy fails. Three dimensional beings occupy two additional dimensions - space and time. Space is not violated by the occupation - X amount of material occupying Y amount of space does NOT eliminate the space (removes it from use by other three dimensional objects yes, eliminate, no). Space is still within the material, yet it occupies no location.
If you prefer to think of it as occupying a location, then stick it between atoms - plenty of room, no perceptible difference since the soul is immaterial and doesn't interact as an atom would. Think Shadowcat - it doesn't obey the 'two material objects cannot occupy the same space' rule by cheating and slipping between the atomic space.
That's NOT a correct view of the immaterial but your other choices are an a priori assumption of materialism that will not work or a fallacious assumption of the conclusion.
FYI: 'Immaterialist' isn't really a thing - I can't think of any other school of thought that can't deal with the immaterial at all - so 'immaterialist' would basically be 'anyone who isn't a materialist'.Last edited by JimL; 01-26-2018, 07:43 PM.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostI know - it's a conditional difference but only a formal materialist would have the issue - Jim won't since he accepts conditional reality. The analogy won't work for him.
It's a blind spot - yes, Jim is definitely a materialist but no, not a formal one - so he can't get past material reality but can accept conditional reality (which a formal materialist wouldn't). He's not just digging in - he really cannot see how the immaterial differs from the material. At least, not yet.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI don't think so Tea. Space does not occupy the material, space is material. Space warps do to the material bodies moving within it, bodies don't eliminate space, but the stretch it. At any rate, space is material, ergo it does occupy location, its just that it is located everywhere. I think you are making the assumption in this analogy that space, like the idea of spirit, is immaterial. Its not.
Its not about a preference, its about what is, or what makes sense. Its a contradiction to say that a body has a soul/spirit but that said spirit isn't localized within the body it occupies.
That's assuming a worldview (materialism) and probably the conclusion (that souls don't exist because they aren't material). It's actually illogical when discussing souls/spirits - they cannot be discussed from materialism. To discuss them you (general) MUST allow that the immaterial exists - the instant you do, the idea of a physical connection or location of the soul to the body becomes esoteric if not irrelevant.
Well, I do appreciate the attemp Tea, but what I'm really looking for is a correct view.
I can deal with anything Tea, so long as it makes sense."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostThink about it - do your lungs occupy space? How, they are inside something (you) occupying space? Mass affects space but doesn't displace it (if it did, space would be like air and it isn't).It makes perfect sense - unless you (general) make invalid a priori assumptions - which is what you do when you insist that a soul, which is not material, must behave as if it were.
That's assuming a worldview (materialism) and probably the conclusion (that souls don't exist because they aren't material).
It's actually illogical when discussing souls/spirits - they cannot be discussed from materialism. To discuss them you (general) MUST allow that the immaterial exists - the instant you do, the idea of a physical connection or location of the soul to the body becomes esoteric if not irrelevant.
You've already been given that, Jim, but you haven't understood it because you aren't allowing the immaterial. The soul and body go together - the mechanism is unknown - and probably spiritual. Your 'where does the soul go' question is nonsensical to every school of thought but materialism - the soul isn't physical and doesn't need a physical or material connection to the body - it doesn't need a location.
The school of materialism rejects the idea that anything is truly immaterial - you personally might be able to grasp that but you're not gonna while working from a materialist framework - it's like trying to see treponemes with a light field - yes, it's a microscope but no, treponemes aren't going to be visible at any magnification. For that, you need a dark field. You're looking at the thing through the 'microscope' of materialism - which is why you can't see it. The soul being immaterial yet able to interact with the body isn't a contradiction or a logical difficulty - unless you are convinced the immaterial doesn't exist.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere is no logically coherent alternative to materialism. To argue that there is, is wishful thinking.My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhat substantive evidence do you have that there is a logically coherent alternative to materialism.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere isn't to my knowledge.My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK
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