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  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
    If Tyre comprised a mainland city and an island city, why did you write "At the time Ezekiel wrote that prophecy Tyre was that "mainland" city"?
    Because there was a mainland city. And that I failed to also refer to the island city in my argument.

    Why are you contradicting your chosen source that says the mainland section was not a city, but a collection of villages?
    Was the mainland city merely a collection of villages for which Nebuchadnezzar's siege takes some 13 years?

    You can't even get your argument straight. Ok, so the modern city and the original city do not completely overlap. So what? That doesn't mean Tyre hasn't been rebuilt.
    So what was false in the video? The prophecy did not say Tyre would cease to exist. (note also Matthew 15;21.)

    Unless you want to make the absurd claim that Tyre hasn't been rebuilt because modern Tyre is not identical to the original city.
    So where and how was Tyre said not to be rebuilt again? And the city was still to exist. It is a matter of Tyre's history. Two locations where Tyre was not rebuilt seem to actually yet exist.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • A closer look of what is on what was the Island.
      insta_11-9-2016-4-11-36-pm-l.jpg
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        So how is it that there are ruins underwater if the quarrying carried off all the Phoenician stones?
        No-one has said that the quarrying carried of all the Phoenician stones.
        By the 18th century the upper layers would surely be Roman and Byzantium.
        Not if the Romans didn't build anything there.
        The best claim for your view is that the Phoenician ruins are under the city, which I wonder how they know this if they are still buried.
        Again, your ignorance of archaeological techniques is not an argument.
        I claim the ancient city of Tyre is substantially underwater, so this ancient city has not been rebuilt.
        Claim rejected.
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Because there was a mainland city. And that I failed to also refer to the island city in my argument.
          So you were wrong. Kudos for admitting it.
          Was the mainland city merely a collection of villages for which Nebuchadnezzar's siege takes some 13 years?
          No, Nebuchadnezzar's siege was against the island city.

          So what was false in the video? The prophecy did not say Tyre would cease to exist. (note also Matthew 15;21.)
          Yes it did:
          And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more


          So where and how was Tyre said not to be rebuilt again? And the city was still to exist. It is a matter of Tyre's history. Two locations where Tyre was not rebuilt seem to actually yet exist.
          Tyre was said not to be rebuilt on the island (now peninsula) where it stood then - where it has in fact been rebuilt, despite minor changes in outline.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
            No, Nebuchadnezzar's siege was against the island city.
            Source: Ancient History Encyclopedia - Tyre

            . . . siege to the city for thirteen years in the 6th century BCE without breaking their defenses. During this siege most of the inhabitants of the mainland city abandoned it for the relative safety of the island city.

            © Copyright Original Source


            Yes it did:
            And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more
            To interpret the prophecy to mean that Tyre was no longer to exist is not what the prophecy said or meant. The Hebrew is only rendered this way once, in this way, in that place. Ezekiel 26:14. Check the Hebrew.

            Tyre was said not to be rebuilt on the island (now peninsula) where it stood then - where it has in fact been rebuilt, despite minor changes in outline.
            It is not that people. And there remains two locations which have never been rebuilt. One on that peninsula, its south east corner.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Source: Ancient History Encyclopedia - Tyre

              . . . siege to the city for thirteen years in the 6th century BCE without breaking their defenses. During this siege most of the inhabitants of the mainland city abandoned it for the relative safety of the island city.

              © Copyright Original Source

              Ok, I may be mistaken here. I'll see if I can find more info.
              To interpret the prophecy to mean that Tyre was no longer to exist is not what the prophecy said or meant. The Hebrew is only rendered this way once, in this way, in that place. Ezekiel 26:14. Check the Hebrew.
              Not knowing Hebrew, I can't check it. But the English translations I have seen all indicate that Tyre would become bare rock and never be rebuilt. It would no longer exist.
              It is not that people. And there remains two locations which have never been rebuilt. One on that peninsula, its south east corner.
              Yes, some of the area of the former city does not currently have buildings on it. Some of that area may be underwater. But unless you insist that rebuilding a city requires that ever square foot that was formerly occupied by buildings be once again occupied by buildings - an absurd requirement - that doesn't mean that the city has never been rebuilt, only that some sections of the city have never been rebuilt.

              But in the final analysis, the area where Tyre stood in Ezekiel's time is not a bare rock, and it has been built on.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                It is not that people. And there remains two locations which have never been rebuilt. One on that peninsula, its south east corner.
                I wrote "east." It should read, "west."
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  No-one has said that the quarrying carried of all the Phoenician stones.
                  Ah,so there are ruins there, and where are they? "The 'Sidonian' port facing north is still in use although it has been sanded up considerably. The 'Egyptian' port facing south is no more. Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn over the sea bottom. Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few. How was the ancient metropolis of Phoenicia so utterly demolished? Devastated by drawn-out sieges and earthquakes throughout her long history, Tyre from the 18th century onward has served as a ‘quarry’ for the whole coast. Her stones may be found as far away as Acre and Beirut."

                  Not if the Romans didn't build anything there.
                  There are Roman ruins there, check out tours of Tyre.

                  Again, your ignorance of archaeological techniques is not an argument.
                  But until you dig there you aren't sure of the ruins.

                  Claim rejected.
                  Well, it looks like we're just going back and forth here, you have yet to acknowledge underwater ruins of Tyre. So I think I'm done here...

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  Last edited by lee_merrill; 02-08-2018, 12:33 PM.
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • Emphasis added for the hard of thinking:
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    So how is it that there are ruins underwater if the quarrying carried off all the Phoenician stones?
                    No-one has said that the quarrying carried of all the Phoenician stones.
                    Ah,so there are ruins there, and where are they?
                    Apart from that obvious answer, you might try reading some more of your own source to find out what changed "recently".
                    Well, it looks like we're just going back and forth here, you have yet to acknowledge underwater ruins of Tyre. So I think I'm done here...
                    Not only have I acknowledged the existence of the underwater ruins several times, e.g. here, I implied their existence in the very post you are responding to.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Attacked the same people. The cite of the city in the prophecy to be built no more was abandoned when the people of Tyre escaped to the island. So explain what is not true in this regarding the prophecy.
                      The mainland "portion of" Tyre wasn't known as Tyre - it was called Ushu - the island city alone was called Tyre.
                      The prophecy specifies the island city - Ushu is not even mentioned by the prophecy.
                      Claims that the modern city of Tyre is adjacent to, but not built on the site of ancient Tyre seem plausible (after all, the ruins are still visible as such), but I haven't been able to verify it as fact (the city might encompass some of the ruins.) Even then, it would be necessary to show that any such ruins were properly regarded as being part of Tyre in the fourth century BC.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        There are Roman ruins there, check out tours of Tyre.
                        Checked it out; discovered that the Roman ruins referred to there are mostly on the mainland, not the island (but see below)[quote]But following up references led to this site, which has photos of the various ruins on Tyre as well as a map showing their locations, including the submerged southern harbour walls.

                        It's clear from the map that the extent of the underwater ruins is considerably less than the extent of Tyre that remains above water; the harbour, which would be on the edge of the city, is closer to the shore than the temple of Melqart, which lies just south of the modern built-up area. The northern harbour is even further away. So the reason for Lee's reluctance to show the extent of the ancient city compared to modern satellite maps is obvious.

                        Of course this isn't a surprise since Lee has already cited this: "The silted up harbour on the south side of the peninsula has been excavated by the French Institute for Archaeology in the Near East, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period still lie beneath the present town."

                        That web page also proposes a date for the harbour submerging (501CE) which is 1200 years before the period of 'quarrying' Jidejian refers to, and which Lee suggested stopped when the city sank. No wonder Lee was vague about that date.

                        The web page also has pictures of some ancient columns which were incorporated into a church built during the Crusader era, so not only are there some Phoenician remains, but the part of the city where those remains lay was rebuilt. Also there are some Roman baths between the temple area and the Southern harbour, next to a Roman palaestra - and beneath the palaestra lie the remains of the Phoenician city walls. So this is another part of the Phoenician city that was rebuilt, this time by the Romans.

                        So Lee's claim that "the ancient city of Tyre is substantially underwater, so this ancient city has not been rebuilt" is utter bollocks. Only the outer area of the Southern harbour is underwater. The temple area is not underwater, and it was rebuilt by Crusaders. The southern city wall area is not underwater, and it was rebuilt by Romans. The northern half of the city up the harbour is not underwater, and has been rebuilt in modern times and, since there's a Byzantine arch in that area, rebuilt before then as well. The ancient city of Tyre is still substantially above water, and has been rebuilt multiple times.

                        So I think I'm done here...
                        You certainly are. Your repeated misrepresentation of facts and sources, coupled with the ridiculousness of your current position that Tyre has not been rebuilt because there are Roman ruins there, render anything you might say henceforth moot.
                        Last edited by Roy; 02-09-2018, 06:16 AM.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          ... following up references led to this site, which has photos of the various ruins on Tyre as well as a map showing their locations, including the submerged southern harbour walls.

                          It's clear from the map that the extent of the underwater ruins is considerably less than the extent of Tyre that remains above water; the harbour, which would be on the edge of the city, is closer to the shore than the temple of Melqart, which lies just south of the modern built-up area.
                          Well, the temple of Melqart is yet to be identified: "We may be optimistic that the sanctuary stood somewhere close to the church and may one day be identified."

                          That web page also proposes a date for the harbour submerging (501CE) which is 1200 years before the period of 'quarrying' Jidejian refers to, and which Lee suggested stopped when the city sank. No wonder Lee was vague about that date.
                          Thanks for the clarification of the date of the harbor sinking! And the acknowledgement that the harbor sank.

                          The web page also has pictures of some ancient columns which were incorporated into a church built during the Crusader era, so not only are there some Phoenician remains, but the part of the city where those remains lay was rebuilt. Also there are some Roman baths between the temple area and the Southern harbour, next to a Roman palaestra - and beneath the palaestra lie the remains of the Phoenician city walls. So this is another part of the Phoenician city that was rebuilt, this time by the Romans.
                          Then we read "The City Baths were built on top of the ancient Phoenician wall: this is the only place where something is visible of the city captured by Alexander the Great." So the parts of the city below water are still the substantial ruins we see.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • [moot stuff deleted]
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Thanks for the clarification of the date of the harbor sinking! And the acknowledgement that the harbor sank.
                              Here's an extract from Joshua the Stylite, writing in 507 (translated by W.Wright):
                              Now then listen to the calamities that happened in this year*, and to the sign that appeared on the day when they happened, for this too you have required at my hands. On the 22d of Ab (August) in this year, on the night preceding |37 Friday 23, a great fire appeared to us blazing in the northern quarter the whole night, and we thought that the whole earth was going to be destroyed that night by a deluge of fire; but the mercy of our Lord preserved us without harm. We received, however, a letter from some acquaintances of ours, who were travelling to Jerusalem, in which it was stated that, on the same night in which that great blazing fire appeared, the city of Ptolemais or 'Akko was overturned, and nothing in it left standing. Again, a few days after, there came unto us some Tyrians and Sidonians, and told us that, on the very same day on which the fire appeared and Ptolemais was overturned, the half of their cities fell, namely of Tyre and Sidon In Berytus (Beirut) only the synagogue of the Jews fell down on the day when 'Akko was overturned. The people of Nicomedia (in Bithynia) were delivered over to Satan to be chastised, and many of them were tormented by demons, until they remembered the words of our Lord, and persevered in fasting and prayer, and received healing.. In Berytus (Beirut) only the synagogue of the Jews fell down on the day when 'Akko was overturned.
                              So according to this account the city of Tyre was devastated in 501, along with the cities of Sidon, Ptolemais, Beirut, Nicomedia and others.

                              This has nothing to do with Nebuchadnezzar's siege, or Alexander's capture, or indeed any assault against Tyre.

                              *813 in the Macedonian calendar, corresponding to 501-502AD
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment

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