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  • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    You have the means to house them. Considering how much money is drained into that system it has to be either run very inefficiently, or very corruptly for all that money to be wasted. I don't think the US can get away without criticism or a "Am I my brothers keeper" excuse.
    But Trump needed that taxpayer money to pay for his campaign rally disguised as a 4th of July celebration.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Good point, but I imagine walking through the desert with ladders and large rubber mats isn't exactly easy, or inconspicuous.
      I don't think the caravans are even trying to hide at this point. But right now they can pretend they are here to apply for asylum and not trying to sneak in illegally. If there was a fence and they were actively trying to defeat it, that fiction would no longer hold up.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Yawn.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          I can't find anywhere in this thread where someone asserted "because the experts claimed so-and-so, it is therefore guaranteed to be true." Rather they are deferring to legitimate experts, speaking in their area of expertise (which is not at all fallacious), and they're asking what expertise you have on this subject to consider yourself more knowledgeable than those who are actually doing the field work? That's not an appeal to authority. That you "won't bow down to experts" (when in reality you do so on plenty of other subjects every single day) is not a compelling counter-argument.
          Seer and Rogue's responses were basically, "who are you to disagree with the experts." I was responding to that. That is an appeal to authority. As noted, even experts can be wrong. I disagree with the "experts" for the reasons cited. If someone wants to take up the issues, happy to discuss. Otherwise...
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Seer and Rogue's responses were basically, "who are you to disagree with the experts." I was responding to that. That is an appeal to authority. As noted, even experts can be wrong. I disagree with the "experts" for the reasons cited. If someone wants to take up the issues, happy to discuss. Otherwise...
            You're wrong carpedm9587. It is not an appeal to authority to question your expertise in the face of claims made by actual experts working in their area. That even experts working in their field may be wrong is irrelevant. No one claimed that because the experts said so-and-so, it is therefore guaranteed to be true.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              But Trump needed that taxpayer money to pay for his campaign rally disguised as a 4th of July celebration.
              Trump don't need no tax payer money! Just add another Trillion on the Debt, and call it good!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Trump don't need no tax payer money! Just add another Trillion on the Debt, and call it good!
                Though, being that its Trump, you probably haven't noticed, but he has already done that, and unlike Obama, Trump didn't have the economic hole to dig us out of that Obama had to deal with.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Though, being that its Trump, you probably haven't noticed, but he has already done that, and unlike Obama, Trump didn't have the economic hole to dig us out of that Obama had to deal with.
                  JimmyPooHoneyDarlin --- I don't care WHO does it, I don't like it, and all your little leftist heroes are gonna quadruple it if they ever get their way with all their give-away programs.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    You're wrong carpedm9587. It is not an appeal to authority to question your expertise in the face of claims made by actual experts working in their area. That even experts working in their field may be wrong is irrelevant. No one claimed that because the experts said so-and-so, it is therefore guaranteed to be true.
                    You are entitled to your opinion, Adrift.

                    I've made all of the response I can to "who are you to disagree with the experts?" When someone responds to the specific points I've made, I'll be happy to engage. Other than that...not much else to say.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Your question appears to focus on the informal aspect of the fallacy. From your post: "Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true."

                      That was my point. If someone wants to put forward the arguments an expert has made and argue their merits, they should do so. If the argument is, "who are you to disagree with the experts?" then my response will be, "a person with a mind and the ability to read and understand." Argue the merits - not the person.
                      While not deductively conclusive in a formal sense, in practical terms the opinions of recognized experts should carry greater weight than those of "Joe Blow."
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                        Walls are pretty easy to defeat. I know of gated communities in South Africa, where the residents protect themselves from the criminal elements of society by hiding behind walls
                        8ft wall with another 6ft of razor wire and electrified fencing (with the level set to "knock out the TRex").
                        It gets defeated by ladders and thick rubber mats.....


                        (just an observation, no real suggestions for you)
                        The observation that "an eleven-foot ladder defeats a ten-foot wall" has been well-worn. No one claims that a wall alone will solve the problem. The claim is that a wall will *impede* the invaders, and be one tool among many to help the beleaguered border personnel.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          You are entitled to your opinion, Adrift.

                          I've made all of the response I can to "who are you to disagree with the experts?" When someone responds to the specific points I've made, I'll be happy to engage. Other than that...not much else to say.
                          It's not an opinion, it's how the fallacy is defined.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            The observation that "an eleven-foot ladder defeats a ten-foot wall" has been well-worn. No one claims that a wall alone will solve the problem. The claim is that a wall will *impede* the invaders, and be one tool among many to help the beleaguered border personnel.
                            If the wall was the most effective bang for the buck, then it could perhaps be justified ... if.

                            What evidence is there that is the best long term use of the billions required to create and maintain it?

                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              While not deductively conclusive in a formal sense, in practical terms the opinions of recognized experts should carry greater weight than those of "Joe Blow."
                              Yeah...not so much. Look - an expert is more likely to have a correct opinion, by virtue of the fact that they are an expert. I grant you that. But that doesn't mean any of us should simply blindly accept what an expert says because they are an expert. Rogue's and Seer's response boiled down to "who are you to question an expert?" Who I am is a rational, thinking human being who can do some research, evaluate arguments, and weigh them on their merits. I've put forward my reasons for my immigration positions and the wall. If someone wants to tackle the issues raised, I'm happy to discuss. If they just want to declare that "experts disagree with me," then they haven't made an argument; they've just observed a situation. I already know I disagree with a few experts. That doesn't advance the discussion, IMO.

                              And I am way past repeating myself, so I'll leave the last word on "experts" to y'all. If anyone wants to discuss the actual issues, I'm happy to engage.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                This has been going on for awhile now[1] with the latest started by soap opera actress Nancy Lee Grahn when she posted some pictures that got widely circulated.

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]38009[/ATTACH]

                                but, like many others, "accidentally" cropped the pictures removing the original timestamp ... from 2015. Hmm, who was president back then? [ATTACH=CONFIG]38010[/ATTACH]

                                Could it have been the Obamessiah?











                                1. For example:
                                And that is your excuse for not being concerned? If only it happened before it is ok? Is this what your God given moral standard provides and how does it actually differ from relativism?

                                I wouldn't assume you would come to the conclusion that Jesus, who identified with the least of these, would support putting children in cages....
                                Last edited by Charles; 07-11-2019, 05:57 AM.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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