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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Our Translated Gospels

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  • #61
    Continued from last post above ↑

    Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
    Third, the nation must be spiritually prepared for its liberation and its triumph. Yahweh is ready at all time, and the day will come whenever Israel is fit for it: 42:23-25; 44:22; 48:18; 55:2 f., 6 f.; 58:1-11; 59:1 f. God keeps the liberator, the "sharp arrow," concealed in his quiver (49:2); when the time is ripe (Hab. 2:3) he will bring forth. But the time of his manifestation depends on the people; it is only when they shall be ready (Lk. 1:17) that he can appear in the flesh. Not till then can be heard the roar of triumph in the city and the temple, announcing the birth of the "male child" (66:6 f.). It was the recognition of this necessity, and of the difficulty of meeting it, that produced the doctrine of the Forerunner, stated in Mal. 3:23 f. (4:5 f.).

    To be continued...

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    • #62
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      Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
      Fourth, the people must spread the true faith, not keep it to themselves. The Israelites always knew the need of propaganda, and felt its importance more and more as time went on. Second Isaiah gives them a new conception of the task. The faith of Israel (though not the special privilege of the chosen people) is for all mankind, and must be carried forth into every part of the world. The Servant is given "a tongue for teaching" (50:4); the people must proclaim what they know. "You have heard all this, will you not declare it?" (48:6). They are Yahweh's witnesses, but have not witnessed. In 48:20 the prophet reminds them of the great deliverance, the flight from Egypt (not from "Babylon" and "Chaldea," which are interpolated), and proceeds: "Tell this, make it known; carry it forth to the ends of the earth!" Cf. 52:10-12.

      To be continued...

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      • #63
        Continued from last post above ↑

        Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
        Fifth, multitudes of the Gentiles will see the truth and be persuaded, but these multitudes will be but a part of the whole; there must be a final conflict, in which Yahweh's might will be shown, and the powerful enemies of his people will be annihilated. So the prophets taught, and continued to teach. II Isaiah several times predicts this victory, in picturesque language; the passages have already been cited. In this conflict, in which "mountains are shattered and hills leveled" (41:15 f.; 42:13-15; 45:2a; Hab. 3:6, 9, 13 f. as emended), it is no human power that is wielded, no Israelite forces are in the field; Yahweh's "arm" is manifested (40:10; 51:9; 52:10; 53:1), and it is this which strikes down kings and armies in behalf of his Servant, called Jacob in 41:8-16, Abraham in verse 25, and the Anointed in 45:1, who stands at his right hand (41:13; 45:1), as in Hab. 3:13.

        To be continued...

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        • #64
          Continued from last post above ↑

          Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
          The second Isaiah's prediction of the ingathering of the Gentiles is his greatest contribution to the religious faith of Israel; greater even than his wonderful portrayal of the coming leader. He himself declares it to be a new revelation, never before known. This he says in 48:6 f. (cf. 49:5 ff., 55:3-5), and then in 49:8-13 he proceeds to develop the theme. It was doctrine that could easily be misunderstood, and even resisted. He had prepared the way for it in the earlier chapters, from chapter 34 onwards: contrasting the punishment of Yahweh's enemies with the future glory of Israel; proclaiming Yahweh as the creator of the universe and of all men on earth (this always introduced whenever the hope of the nations is mentioned); ridiculing the "gods" of the foreigners, naming especially Bel and Nebo, and predicting the downfall of that power (Babylon) whose yoke the Jews had been bearing. More than this, he expressly anticipates objection, disappointment, and replies to it, putting the words in Yahweh's mouth: "Will you question me about my children? will you command me concerning the work of my hands? (45:11; and when, after the description of the home-coming of the Gentiles in 49:8-13, Zion cries out, "Yahweh has forsaken me!" he replies "Can a woman forget her child?" and in the remainder of the chapter sets forth the glory which no other people can share. It is significant that in chapter 45, before the passage just cited and leading the way to it, the prophet puts his creation of a superhuman son of David into necessary connection with his doctrine of the salvation of the Gentiles. See 4-6, cf. 22 f. And indeed, as has already been said, the teaching concerning the Messiah, all the way from II Isaiah to the Gospels, always included as an essential feature the ingathering of the nations.

          To be continued...
          Last edited by John Reece; 05-31-2014, 10:47 AM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Continued from last post above ↑

            Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
            The Second Isaiah's prediction of the ingathering of the Gentiles is his greatest contribution to the religious faith of Israel; greater even than his wonderful portrayal of the coming leader. He himself declares it to be a new revelation, never before made known. This he says in 48:6 f. (cf. 49:5 ff., 55:3-5), and then in 49:8-13 he proceeds to develop the theme. It was doctrine that could easily be misunderstood, and even resisted. He had prepared the way for it in the earlier chapters, from chapter 34 onwards: contrasting the punishment of God's enemies with the future glory of Israel; proclaiming Yahweh as the creator of the universe and of all men on earth (this always introduced whenever the hope of the nations is mentioned); ridiculing the "gods" of the foreigner, naming especially Bel and Nebo, and predicting the downfall of that power (Babylon), whose yoke the Jews had been bearing. More than this he expressly anticipates rejection, disappointment, and replies to it, putting the words in Yahweh's mouth: "Will you question me about my children? will you command me concerning the work of my hands?" (45:11); and when, after the description of the home-coming of the Gentiles in 49:8-13, Zion cries out, "Yahweh has forsaken me!" he replies "Can a woman forget her child?" and in the remainder of the chapter sets forth the glory which no other people can share. It is significant that in chapter 45, before the passage just cited and leading the way to it, the prophet puts his creation of a superhuman son of David into necessary connection with his doctrine of the salvation of the Gentiles. See verses 4-6, cf. 22 f. And indeed, as has already been said, the teaching concerning the Messiah, all the way from II Isaiah to the Gospels, always included as an essential feature the ingathering of the best of the nations.

            To be continued...

            Comment


            • #66
              Continued from last post above ↑

              Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
              Sixth, a new earth; endless reign of justice and good will among men; with the Messiah on the throne in a new Jerusalem, joyfully acknowledged by the erstwhile strangers and enemies (including kings), who make pilgrimages to the holy city, and are free to worship Yahweh in their own way. The wicked, of both Jews and Gentiles have perished.

              To be continued...

              Comment


              • #67
                Continued from last post above ↑

                Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:

                §3. The Task of the Nazarenes


                What has here been set forth as "the program of Second Isaiah" was normative for all the subsequent Hebrew-Jewish writers, up to the rise of Christianity. Nothing was subtracted from it, certainly very little could be added to it. Every feature of the eschatology of the Gospels is derived from the O.T. The disciples of Jesus, when he had passed from among them, realized that no time must be lost, for there was much preparatory work to be done before the promised kingdom could be established on earth.

                To be continued...

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                • #68
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                  Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                  First of all, the person of the Nazarene must be equated with the long-inherited picture of the Messiah. The Jewish people, "beginning at Jerusalem," must be brought to accept the identification. Then, as soon as possible, the truth must be carried abroad to all the Jews of the Dispersion, for only through Jewish agency could the good tidings be proclaimed to the Gentiles.

                  To be continued...

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                  • #69
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                    Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                    In spite of the fierce and stubborn opposition already encountered, they can have no doubt as to the outcome, for they were sure of their ground, and saw themselves in possession of important advantages. They numbered, from the first, a very considerable body of those who were fully persuaded that Jesus was the predicted Messiah. A powerful appeal could be made to his known personal character, and to his teachings that were preserved. There were eye-witnesses who would testify. Immensely important was the argument from fulfillment of scripture; for all the people, high and low, saw in the Hebrew scriptures the word of God, and believed that all must be fulfilled. And again, there was the political situation, showing that the time was ripe for the promised deliverer.

                    To be continued...

                    Comment


                    • #70
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                      Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                      They had no need, nor could they have wished, to review the Messianic doctrine. It was very ancient, and known to all; their hope lay in maintaining and applying it. It was definite, detailed, and unquestioned. Frequently in the Gospels the claims of Jesus are tested by the popular beliefs: Could the Messiah come from Galilee? etc. Mt 2:4 ff. represents the chief priests and scribes as furnishing Herod with the official Jewish teaching as the the birthplace of the expected king. The people know that his reign is to be eternal (John 12:34). According to Mk. 14:61; Mt. 26:63; Lk. 22:70, the high priest and his associates held the Messiah to be the Son of God. It would have been folly on the part of these first Christian narrators to misrepresent what was well known. As for the passages of Hebrew scripture to which they especially appeal as Messianic, and as fulfilled in the man of Nazareth, it is altogether probable that in each case the interpretation which they give is the one which was accepted in their day. But the Messianic application of such passages was thenceforward repudiated, as a matter of course, by the Jewish authorities, as far as this could be done.

                      To be continued...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Continued from last post above ↑

                        Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                        Nowhere in the Gospels, the Acts, and the writings of Paul is there the slightest evidence that any element of the Jewish people rejected the Messianic doctrine, or held it lightly. There is nowhere any hint of a contrast between those who held the doctrine and those who did not; and this means, beyond question, that there was no such line that could be drawn. The argument of the Nazarenes is always concerning the person, never concerning the office. As for the Sadducees, it was natural that they, as a party, should show antagonism to the Nazarenes and their leaders (Mk. 12:18; Acts 4:1 f.; 23:6 ff.), because of the emphasis which the new teaching gave to the resurrection from the dead. This gives no evidence, however, that they rejected the ancient and deep-rooted faith of the people in the coming of the Son of David; for belief in the resurrection was not one if its essential features, nor was it inconsonant with any of their known tenets. Liberal and "modern" as they were, they certainly never abandoned, as a party, their claim to belong to God's chosen people.

                        To be continued...

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Continued from last post above ↑

                          Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                          Concerning the measure of success which the Nazarenes achieved in their initial task of persuading their fellow countrymen in Jerusalem, Judea, and Palestine we are very ill informed. The general impression of progress given in I Acts is doubtless trustworthy as far as it goes, but it leaves us in the dark as to many matters.

                          To be continued...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Continued from last post above ↑

                            Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                            Some highly significant evidence from the side of the unbelieving Jewish authorities is to be had, but very slight attention has been paid to it hitherto. It was presented in summary, apparently for the first time, by the late Professor George F. Moore in an article dealing with "The Repudiation of the Christian Scriptures" (by the Jews), published in Essays in Modern Theology and Related Subjects, a Testimonial to Charles A. Briggs; New York, 1911. The editors of The Beginnings of Christianity recognize fully the importance of this article, and call attention to it in Vol. I, pp. 318-320, giving excerpts, of which the following are chief.

                            To be continued...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Continued from last post above ↑

                              Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                              "In the early stages of the controversy as to the 'Writings' [Especially Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Ester, and Sirach] 'the Gospels' were expressly excluded, and by implication must previously have been sometimes admitted. This is clearly stated in Tosephta Yadaim ii, 13 and Tosephta Sabbath xiii (xiv), 5, in deciding which books may be rescued from fire on the sabbath; the Gospels are excluded though they contain the name of God." . . . "The earliest mention is in the time of Johanan ben Zakki; perhaps earlier than the war under Titus, not possibly more than a decade or two later."

                              To be continued...
                              Last edited by John Reece; 06-10-2014, 08:26 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Continued from last post above ↑

                                Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                                This indicates the beginning of a stricter practice following a time in which Nazarenes, with their "gospels," were regarded as good and loyal Jews (though mistaken), and could share, like others, in the synagogue service. New developments necessitated a change from this attitude of toleration.

                                To be continued...

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