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Old Testament Laws and Modern Christianity

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  • #16
    Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
    So is sin only defined by what is considered wrong in the New Testament?
    Certainly. All sin boils down in the end to a failure to love. Loving God and neighour is the law - all the other stuff just delineates the different ways that love can be violated (or upheld, as the case may be).
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #17
      There are several diffrences between the old covenant and the new, but one important one is that the old had precepts that were spelled out. Though shalt not kill meant you should not commit murder.

      The new covenant had no precepts.

      Let me explain.

      “If you were hiding Jews in your basement, and Nazi storm troopers came to the door and asked if there were any Jews in your house, would you lie?”

      To lie would be a moral infraction. To not lie would also be immoral. So there is no guidance from conscience. The old covenant is of no help here.

      How would a new covenant believer act? What is the role of his new spirit in deciding the course of action?

      The answer is found in the following verse:

      James 2:25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

      Rahab was born again. She switched loyalty from the world to God and that loyalty decided the course of action. Just as Abraham's new loyalty to God decided the course of action.

      The new spirit is therefore, the spirit of loyalty.


      Acts 17:22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23“For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

      Comment


      • #18
        The non-ceremonial laws still apply. While it is true that Christians are under grace, the same could have been said for Moses and Joshua. "Under grace" refers to justification before God, not to practical obedience. Moses did not get to heaven by obeying law, but rather through grace. The same applies to us. But of course Christians are subject to laws in certain ways, similar to how Moses was subject. To the people that say only the repeated laws must be obeyed, Jesus repeated the entire law with just two pithy laws of his own; hence, the whole law was repeated.

        1 Corinthians 9
        20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
        21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          The non-ceremonial laws still apply. While it is true that Christians are under grace, the same could have been said for Moses and Joshua. "Under grace" refers to justification before God, not to practical obedience. Moses did not get to heaven by obeying law, but rather through grace. The same applies to us. But of course Christians are subject to laws in certain ways, similar to how Moses was subject. To the people that say only the repeated laws must be obeyed, Jesus repeated the entire law with just two pithy laws of his own; hence, the whole law was repeated.

          1 Corinthians 9
          20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
          21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
          Oh yes, as highlighted in Titus 2:11-12, obedience is a manifestation of the grace of God is one's life - as the grace of God literally instructs us to say "No" to sin.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            The non-ceremonial laws still apply. While it is true that Christians are under grace, the same could have been said for Moses and Joshua. "Under grace" refers to justification before God, not to practical obedience. Moses did not get to heaven by obeying law, but rather through grace. The same applies to us. But of course Christians are subject to laws in certain ways, similar to how Moses was subject. To the people that say only the repeated laws must be obeyed, Jesus repeated the entire law with just two pithy laws of his own; hence, the whole law was repeated.

            1 Corinthians 9
            20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
            21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
            I am person who says only the repeated laws must be obeyed from the Old Covenant. I have two questions:
            1. Where is it spelled out what are the so-called non-ceremonial laws and ceremonial laws?
            2. In your citation do you mean Paul?

            Comment


            • #21
              21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
              The Old Covenant was not the law of Christ, but the law of Moses - as is attested in the Bible itself. When Paul declares that we are free from the law - as this citation shows - he is saying that we are free of the Law of Moses. The Christian is under the law to Christ, who also said "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." Not the ten commandments, Christ's commandments. And yes, Christ was as much involved in producing the commandments of the Old - obsolete - Covenant as he was in producing the New Covenant.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Foudroyant
                In your citation do you mean Paul?
                No

                Matthew 22
                36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
                37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
                38 This is the first and great commandment.
                39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


                Where is it spelled out what are the so-called non-ceremonial laws and ceremonial laws?
                Jesus touches on the difference many times, when he gets asked about the sabbath and when he talks about sacrifices, unclean foods, etc. Paul describes the obsolete laws as washings and carnal ordinances.

                Hebrews 9
                10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

                Comment


                • #23
                  the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
                  Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
                  What might carnal ordinances signify? Could it be rigid definitions perhaps? The carnal ordinance against adultery is simply to avoid sexual relations with another .... what is the spiritual ordinance?
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The law against adultery did not end at the time of reformation. And the spiritual adultery which you cite was discussed by Jesus (and also the Tenth Commandment from Mount Sinai) during even the old covenant. So no, I do not think it refers to rigid definitions. There were never supposed to be any rigid definitions. Carnal ordinances refers to the other things that expired other than meats and washings — namely, the animal sacrifices and holy days.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The law against adultery did not end at the time of reformation.
                      I see no reason to believe that the old covenant was only rendered obsolete in part. Which is not to say that such things as adultery are condoned in the new covenant, but that the Old Covenant does not apply. The New Covenant has its own - independent - prohibition of such things as adultery.

                      Australian and American laws both derive from British law. Try driving on the right in Australia or on the left in America. The laws of one country do not prevail in the other. Both prohibit theft, but no charge of theft can be brought to trial in Australia under the American statutes, and vice versa.
                      The analogy is clear enough.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 07-09-2014, 01:39 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        No

                        Matthew 22
                        36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
                        37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
                        38 This is the first and great commandment.
                        39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                        40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.




                        Jesus touches on the difference many times, when he gets asked about the sabbath and when he talks about sacrifices, unclean foods, etc. Paul describes the obsolete laws as washings and carnal ordinances.

                        Hebrews 9
                        10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

                        In Post #2 I cited Hebrews 8:13 which cancels out the entire (not just parts) Old Covenant.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          On the matter of Hebrews 8:13, Foudroyant is entirely correct.
                          Hebrews 9:10 quite clearly states that the Old Law is only a matter of of fleshly ordinances, and was imposed until the time of restoration.
                          The Old Law's limitations are defined. It was confined to matters of the flesh, and (9:8) the way to the holy of holies was not made manifest while the first tabernacle stood . Christ has brought, however, (9:11) the more perfect tabernacle.
                          The context of this passage does not deal with which laws apply, but with the obsolescence of the Old Covenant, and its replacement with the new.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Foudroyant, I think the best way of looking at it is that yes, the entire covenant was repealed. That would include the moral laws. But even assuming that it was all repealed, the New Testament reinstitutes the entirety of the moral law. Furthermore, in a sense, the moral laws were a component of the mosaic code that predated the mosaic code. When Hebrews 8 is talking about doing away with the covenant, it specifically mentions that a new covenant appears in its place. And the new covenant includes "laws." The main distinction that Paul makes between the old and new covenants (including in chapter 8) is that the old covenant had animal sacrifices, whereas the new covenant had a single human sacrifice.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Tabibito
                              The New Covenant has its own - independent - prohibition of such things as adultery.
                              How is the new prohibition "independent" of the old, if the new prohibition specifically references the old?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hebrews 9:4 teaches that the "tables of the covenant" are included in the Old Covenant that was abrogated (cf. Hebrews 8:13).

                                The tables of the covenant were the Decalogue (Exodus 24:16).

                                Keil & Delitzsch: Into this ark Moses was to put “the testimony” (העדת; cf. Exodus 40:20). This is the name given to the two tables of stone, upon which the ten words spoken by God to the whole nation were written, and which Moses was to receive from God (Exodus 24:12). Because these ten words were the declaration of God upon the basis of which the covenant was concluded (Exodus 34:27-28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:1-2), these tables were called the tables of testimony (ch. Exodus 31:18; Exodus 34:29), or tables of the covenant (Deuteronomy 9:9; Deuteronomy 11:15).
                                http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=1&ch=25

                                Circumcision also pre-dated the Mosaic code (cf. Genesis 17) but it too has been abrogated.
                                Last edited by foudroyant; 07-09-2014, 07:30 PM.

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