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Does the Trinity constitute three separate consciousnesses?

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  • Does the Trinity constitute three separate consciousnesses?

    My understanding of Classical Theism is that the only distinction in the Trinity is that of procession. The Son proceeds from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. And that is that. It seems to me far more plausible for there to be be three separate consciousnesses and not just procession as it would make far more sense on the incarnation for one thing.

    Are there any problems with such a view? I understand the philosophical objections from those who argue that God must be simple otherwise he couldn't be the first cause etc but is there any particular Biblical issues or are they inextricably linked to the philosophical objections to there being three separate consciousnesses?

  • #2
    I thought the definition was "One God comprising three distinct persons."

    I don't see how there can NOT be three "consciousnesses" without rendering Scripture incomprehensible.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Physiocrat View Post
      My understanding of Classical Theism is that the only distinction in the Trinity is that of procession. The Son proceeds from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. And that is that. It seems to me far more plausible for there to be be three separate consciousnesses and not just procession as it would make far more sense on the incarnation for one thing.

      Are there any problems with such a view? I understand the philosophical objections from those who argue that God must be simple otherwise he couldn't be the first cause etc but is there any particular Biblical issues or are they inextricably linked to the philosophical objections to there being three separate consciousnesses?
      Just one comment: I would consider the Trinity as Classical 'Christian Theism,' and not Classical Theism.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by Physiocrat View Post
        My understanding of Classical Theism is that the only distinction in the Trinity is that of procession. The Son proceeds from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
        This is incorrect. The Son is begotten from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father (in the West, from the Father and the Son, but that's not the classic formulation).
        And that is that. It seems to me far more plausible for there to be be three separate consciousnesses and not just procession as it would make far more sense on the incarnation for one thing.

        Are there any problems with such a view? I understand the philosophical objections from those who argue that God must be simple otherwise he couldn't be the first cause etc but is there any particular Biblical issues or are they inextricably linked to the philosophical objections to there being three separate consciousnesses?
        I'm not quite sure what you intend by 'consciousnesses'. Your view, on the surface, appears to be perilously close to tritheism. Classically, God is three hypostases in one Being. Three Persons, but one will.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          This is incorrect. The Son is begotten from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father (in the West, from the Father and the Son, but that's not the classic formulation).

          I'm not quite sure what you intend by 'consciousnesses'. Your view, on the surface, appears to be perilously close to tritheism. Classically, God is three hypostases in one Being. Three Persons, but one will.
          The formulation I provided was from a theologian in a Thomistic Institute lecture. As to what the appropriate "classical theistic" view is to a large extent redundant for the issues I wish to explore.

          With respect to consciousness I mean each member of the Trinity has their own internal experiences that the others do not have. I'd also say they have three wills but that the wills are united (they agree as it were)

          What are the problems of this position apart from arguing it is tritheism? The accusation of tritheism depends on what concept of God you are using. I think it is philosophically defensible and doesn't violate the way scripture discusses God.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Just one comment: I would consider the Trinity as Classical 'Christian Theism,' and not Classical Theism.
            Fair enough. I was using Classical Theism mainly to denote Divine Simplicity which is common to Aristotle and Islam at least.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Just one comment: I would consider the Trinity as Classical 'Christian Theism,' and not Classical Theism.
              Shuny, might I kindly point out that this forum is "theist only"?

              Thanks
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              • #8
                As to the question of the thread title,
                Originally posted by Physiocrat View Post
                Does the Trinity constitute three separate consciousnesses?
                Yes.
                But the error is not in the concept of the Trinity but in trying to explain the explanation. The Trinity is the explanation.
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                This is incorrect. The Son is begotten from the Father . . . [Nicene Creed]
                Now this concept is extra Biblical and it is a foundation of the error of Arianism, the creed being written in refutation of that error needs to add the words "not made" which it does. [Over this issue and one other (John 1:2), I am considered unorthodox here on Tweb.] I hold the three Persons are the one and the same God, which is orthodox.
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                • #9
                  Yes, it is three consciousnesses.

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                  • #10
                    I don't see how there could be anything but three consciousnesses(sp?) without making nonsense of the concept of personhood.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      I don't see how there could be anything but three consciousnesses(sp?) without making nonsense of the concept of personhood.
                      I hereby offer my yesnesses.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        I don't see how there could be anything but three consciousnesses(sp?) without making nonsense of the concept of personhood.
                        The concept of kenosis is relevant here. While in the flesh, Jesus did not know when he would return, but said that God the Father did know. Clearly there is a distinction.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          The concept of kenosis is relevant here. While in the flesh, Jesus did not know when he would return, but said that God the Father did know. Clearly there is a distinction.
                          Some trinitarians such as Dr Walter Martin takes the position that the second Person of the Trinity did not become the Son until His incarnation (Luke 1:35; Mark 13:32 [Acts 1:7]). Dr Martin held that the concept of the eternal Son was not biblical. [I disagree with Dr. Martin on the concept of the eternal Son, though like the term Trinity does not occur in the Bible.]
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            I don't see how there could be anything but three consciousnesses(sp?) without making nonsense of the concept of personhood.
                            Well, classical theists I have come across argue that the term person here is a technical one which doesn't relate to what we normally understand by person. Now to what they use it mean, all I can gather is that there is Father, Son and Spirit, they aren't each but one and they only differences are the difference of procession as laid out in the OP

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Physiocrat
                              Well, classical theists I have come across argue that the term person here is a technical one which doesn't relate to what we normally understand by person. Now to what they use it mean, all I can gather is that there is Father, Son and Spirit, they aren't each but one and they only differences are the difference of procession as laid out in the OP
                              In my opinion, people who teach that are severely undermining the humanity of Jesus Christ.

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