LPO Terror, why not follow this guy? N.B. Not Lew Rockwell himself, but a honest to goodness military type, or so I think. http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewr...es/023254.html

Originally posted by Augustine2004

LPO Terror, why not follow this guy? N.B. Not Lew Rockwell himself, but a honest to goodness military type, or so I think. http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewr...es/023254.html

How many people in the military do you know?

Good grief, I don’t know how many. But let me see, there’s William S. Lind (I don’t know what is his military background, but he’s regarded as a military expert). Eric Margolis. Maybe several others.

Your point no doubt is that most military people think the Mideast wars are worthwhile. I doubt it, many of them are poor folks who like the money and other benefits of military service. Others are murderous types. It’s a fallacy to count upraised hands anyway. You’re not being logical.

I myself am using ad hom arguments, but that’s only to counter your side’s ad hom claims of support for the war.

Originally posted by Augustine2004

Good grief, I don’t know how many. But let me see, there’s William S. Lind (I don’t know what is his military background, but he’s regarded as a military expert). Eric Margolis. Maybe several others.

I asked if you know him, not name dropping.

Your point no doubt is that most military people think the Mideast wars are worthwhile. I doubt it, many of them are poor folks who like the money and other benefits of military service. Others are murderous types. It’s a fallacy to count upraised hands anyway. You’re not being logical.

Guess how many battles I've been in? Zero. Guess how many blood thirsty military men and women I know? Zero. Guess how many military men adn women I've known who relish in killing? None. Sorry dear, but I am

I myself am using ad hom arguments, but that’s only to counter your side’s ad hom claims of support for the war.

Oh, so it's ok for you to do the very thing you condemn of others, eh? Sorry, but there was no ad hominem claims of the war. Just the lies spit forth by the idiot known as Lew Rockwell that misrepresents people, downright lies to his audience, and tries to make it sound as if the military is out there murdering people. I have been in nearly 5 years and I have never been in a battle, never shot anybody, never been issued a gun for self defense, and have never known somebody who looked forward to going out and killing people just for the fun of it. That is how I know Lew Rockwell is a liar because I have been there done that, you haven't.

I goofed. I didn’t mean, just to counter the other side’s ad homs. I also wanted to point out people who are good role models. Inspire you to leave the ‘service’ regardless of the consequences.

You never have to worry about getting raped, huh? All those reports of servicewomen getting raped or sexually molested were fake?


Please confirm the Associated Press report that ‘the top U.S. military commander in Afghanistan said Wednesday that he needs more troops and other aid ‘as quickly as possible’ in a counterinsurgency battle that could get worse before it gets better.”

I don’t think it will get better to the point that it finally ends.

Originally posted by Augustine2004

I goofed. I didn’t mean, just to counter the other side’s ad homs. I also wanted to point out people who are good role models. Inspire you to leave the ‘service’ regardless of the consequences.

And there are 'good role models' out there who stood in the service or were members of the service and who have encouraged me to stay. This can work both ways... here is a place that says the military is great.

You never have to worry about getting raped, huh? All those reports of servicewomen getting raped or sexually molested were fake?

It's impossible to control all million service people in any given moment. Just because one women in the service was raped or sexual molested does not lead to the conclusion that all are raped or sexual molested. And those men who did that... guess what happens to them? They are nailed to the floor for all to see. Sexual harassment in the military is a very serious crime and rape will land you a dishonorable discharge and time in a military prison. Second thing is this... be careful who you are with and where you go alone. Be aware of your surroundings. I never leave the door for my apartment unlocked, even if I'm running to the car and back. This applies to the civilian world as well. Third, believe it or not... women are raped outside the military too, it's not a unique military problem. So do you have a real argument now or are you just going to point out that a few people not doing what they should is proof that the entire system is false?

Please confirm the Associated Press report that ‘the top U.S. military commander in Afghanistan said Wednesday that he needs more troops and other aid ‘as quickly as possible’ in a counterinsurgency battle that could get worse before it gets better.”

I don’t think it will get better to the point that it finally ends.

This war isn't going to be a short war, it's going to be long and the Battles now are not nearly as bad in intensity or strength as they were in 2001. Things are improving the real issue is that the government is more worried about public appearance than winning.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

here is a place that says the military is great.

Looks like a government recruitment site. I suspect it is.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

It's impossible to control all million service people in any given moment. Just because one women in the service was raped or sexual molested does not lead to the conclusion that all are raped or sexual molested.

I never said so. To be sure, the reports that I saw didn't make any comparison with non-military rates.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

And those men who did that... guess what happens to them? They are nailed to the floor for all to see.

I doubt they are always caught every time, contrary to the impression that you're apparently trying to create.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Second thing is this... be careful who you are with and where you go alone. Be aware of your surroundings. I never leave the door for my apartment unlocked, even if I'm running to the car and back. This applies to the civilian world as well.

Ah, thanks for making the point you can't rely on the government for security - even in the military, for God's sake.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Third, believe it or not... women are raped outside the military too, it's not a unique military problem. So do you have a real argument now or are you just going to point out that a few people not doing what they should is proof that the entire system is false?

I've already made two points, see above. Another point: While I do believe most military people are decent - there's you - there are savages out there. Predatory animals. Another point is that you said lewrockwell.com made lies, but you confirmed those rapes.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

This war isn't going to be a short war, it's going to be long

I hope not. Run by me again what we are fighting for? Democracy? What democracy? al Qaida is still going strong. Sure we've killed a lot of 'em, but it's still as strong as ever. Recruits, don't you know? Any other reason?

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

and the Battles now are not nearly as bad in intensity or strength as they were in 2001. Things are improving the real issue is that the government is more worried about public appearance than winning.

Are you talking about Iraq? I was talking about Afghanistan. Looks like we're gradually losing there. Explain 'more worried about public appearance than winning.'
Cheney and Bush sure have ignored public opposition to the war.

Originally posted by Augustine2004

Looks like a government recruitment site.

Yep, anything you don't like is just waved away as some 'government conspiracy theory. So does that mean I can wave away Lew Rockwell as a terrorist who wishes for America to lose the war or terror becuase he's really a terrorist working from within?

I suspect it is.I never said so. To be sure, the reports that I saw didn't make any comparison with non-military rates.

And that right there seems to show me they have an agenda in not giving civilian figures. Just as I am aware of my surroundings when I'm out an about in the civilian world, I am just as aware on base. The fact is, the military can not control the actions of every person, bottom line, be aware of where you are at and what is going on; this applies everywhere, not just on base.

I doubt they are always caught every time, contrary to the impression that you're apparently trying to create.

Part of the reason not all of them are caught is because either the women choose to report a rape without going up the chain of command (this is known as restricted reporting) or they don't report it at all. It is estimated that as many as half of all rapes are not reported in both the military and the civilian world. But if it is reported and the person left behind even one scrap of DNA (yes, they do have every service members DNA profile) their career is over, simple as that. In the military world, it is far eaiser to catch a rapist due to that fact.

Ah, thanks for making the point you can't rely on the government for security - even in the military, for God's sake.

I really don't see this as much of an argument. The reality is that people will do what they want reguardless of what they are suppose to do. Now unless you want the government to turn into something from the book 1984 and watch your every move; rapes are going to happen in the civilian world and the military world. Welcome to reality! Now when you can show me that the civilian world has no rapes, while the military does... I'll believe you and count this as an argument. For now; it's just special pleading.

I've already made two points, see above.

No you haven't, you just special plead and hope it makees your case.

Another point: While I do believe most military people are decent - there's you - there are savages out there. Predatory animals.

There are savages in the civilian world too. Again, welcome to reality. I am just as likely (in fact more likely) to be raped, murdered, beatten, etc off base as I am on base. BTK was not a military member, the snippers in DC were not either so my point? They exist everywhere so really... how is this a case against the military?

Another point is that you said lewrockwell.com made lies, but you confirmed those rapes.

Rapes happen in the civilian world too, do you deny this fact?

I hope not. Run by me again what we are fighting for? Democracy? What democracy? al Qaida is still going strong.

Has Al Qaida been able to strike in the heartland of the US? Nope. Have they been able to defeat the US military in a battle? Nope and everytime they try, they lose badly. So really... how are they growing stronger? Because they are still able to do hit and run attacks? Again, this war isn't going to be over 3 or 4 years, but several.

Sure we've killed a lot of 'em, but it's still as strong as ever. Recruits, don't you know? Any other reason?Are you talking about Iraq? I was talking about Afghanistan. Looks like we're gradually losing there.

No we are not losing at all, welcome to war, things go up and down, it's called strike and counter strike.

Explain 'more worried about public appearance than winning.'
Cheney and Bush sure have ignored public opposition to the war.

That is because the public is stupid and often listens to whatever media will tell them.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Yep, anything you don't like is just waved away as some 'government conspiracy theory. So does that mean I can wave away Lew Rockwell as a terrorist who wishes for America to lose the war or terror becuase he's really a terrorist working from within?

Two possibilities here:

1. The government works for the ruling class. You and I are essentially slaves. In that case, Lew Rockwell is really a hero. Not a terrorist.

2. The government works for the good of all. Perhaps not always, but usually anyway. There is no ruling class. In that case, Lew Rockwell is a villain. Perhaps not really a terrorist, but still a villain.

How to decide? I sure wonder what you think of the bailout. Could you be that credulous?

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

And that right there seems to show me they have an agenda in not giving civilian figures. Just as I am aware of my surroundings when I'm out an about in the civilian world, I am just as aware on base. The fact is, the military can not control the actions of every person, bottom line, be aware of where you are at and what is going on; this applies everywhere, not just on base.

Well, Miss Skeptic, take a look at this:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Part of the reason not all of them are caught is because either the women choose to report a rape without going up the chain of command (this is known as restricted reporting) or they don't report it at all. It is estimated that as many as half of all rapes are not reported in both the military and the civilian world. But if it is reported and the person left behind even one scrap of DNA (yes, they do have every service members DNA profile) their career is over, simple as that. In the military world, it is far eaiser to catch a rapist due to that fact.

Hmmmm. . . . No explanation for why there are so many rapes and so many attempts in the military. Why do women have to carry knives to the latrine?

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

I really don't see this as much of an argument. The reality is that people will do what they want reguardless of what they are suppose to do. Now unless you want the government to turn into something from the book 1984 and watch your every move; rapes are going to happen in the civilian world and the military world. Welcome to reality! Now when you can show me that the civilian world has no rapes, while the military does... I'll believe you and count this as an argument. For now; it's just special pleading.

Why have government when it does more bad than good?

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

I am just as likely (in fact more likely) to be raped, murdered, beatten, etc off base as I am on base.

Can you establish that against the government statistics shown above?

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Has Al Qaida been able to strike in the heartland of the US? Nope.

How do you know it's not deliberate strategy? Osama bin Laden said his objective was to wear down the American empire, and from what I've read he's succeeding.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Have they been able to defeat the US military in a battle? Nope and everytime they try, they lose badly.

That's what we said about Vietnam. Never lost a battle blah blah blah.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

No we are not losing at all, welcome to war, things go up and down, it's called strike and counter strike.

Well, yeah, but I take the view that if we're not winning, we're losing and if we can't win we must withdraw.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

That is because the public is stupid and often listens to whatever media will tell them.

Actually, for the most part the MSM is pro-statist and pro-war.

Originally posted by Augustine2004

Two possibilities here:

1. The government works for the ruling class. You and I are essentially slaves. In that case, Lew Rockwell is really a hero. Not a terrorist.

2. The government works for the good of all. Perhaps not always, but usually anyway. There is no ruling class. In that case, Lew Rockwell is a villain. Perhaps not really a terrorist, but still a villain.

I'd say number two.

How to decide? I sure wonder what you think of the bailout. Could you be that credulous?

Depends on the way you look at it or how it works out.

Well, Miss Skeptic, take a look at this:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm
Hmmmm. . . . No explanation for why there are so many rapes and so many attempts in the military. Why do women have to carry knives to the latrine?

Per population dear, the military is a bit higher, but again.... that doesn't mean the military must be evil because after all; in 1993 it was about 3 to 4 times higher in the civilian world. Second, I've been to the middle east... and guess what? I was never worried about being raped nor did I know any other women who were. Got another argument or is a mis-report in figures all you can produce?

Why have government when it does more bad than good?

Can you change this question so it makes sense?

Can you establish that against the government statistics shown above?

Are you a member of the armed forces? Nope. I am though and guess what... they have reports that can be field from anybody who is a victim of rape and they do prosecute if you so desire. Yet again... it seems Lew Rockwell ignores these facts to make his case seem more valid than it really is.

How do you know it's not deliberate strategy? Osama bin Laden said his objective was to wear down the American empire, and from what I've read he's succeeding. That's what we said about Vietnam. Never lost a battle blah blah blah.

No it's not succeeding at all. The crash of the housing market has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. Same thing going on with the banks and insurance companies... it isn't the fact the war is going on. It is the fact of bad loans combined with a fall out of the housing market. So nope... it's not succeeding at all, just more people warping the facts to fit into their views.

Well, yeah, but I take the view that if we're not winning, we're losing and if we can't win we must withdraw.Actually, for the most part the MSM is pro-statist and pro-war.

Too bad we are, but people are stupid and seem to want instant results. It's not going to be instant and the people are too dumb to understand that.

OK, so you believe that the US Federal Government is doing more good than bad. Why?

Now, I don't know you well enough to know that your 'feelings' ('gut' judgements about situations when information is lacking - as it usually is - for well-established judgements) are usually correct. So you need to show how you know that. If you base your argument on your feelings, that's NOT acceptable.

Originally posted by Augustine2004

OK, so you believe that the US Federal Government is doing more good than bad. Why?

Are you speaking German today? Are you prison today because you spoke bad about the government? If not... why? The USSR and Nazi Germany would of locked you away long ago, so just remember that.

Now, I don't know you well enough to know that your 'feelings' ('gut' judgements about situations when information is lacking - as it usually is - for well-established judgements) are usually correct. So you need to show how you know that. If you base your argument on your feelings, that's NOT acceptable.

Feelings are illogical and get you into trouble; I go off my head. Guess what dear... never heard of any women in the military having to take a knife to the bathroom because they were afraid of being rapped. Have you been in the military for years and years? I have and I think I would of heard about it by now. My chances of being rapped in the civilian world is just as good as on a military base. Did Lew Rockwell tell you that? If he did, that means he's pretty dishonest or just found a few women who felt that way and decided to play sensationalism and try to pretend that all or even the majority are doing that.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Are you speaking German today? Are you prison today because you spoke bad about the government? If not... why? The USSR and Nazi Germany would of locked you away long ago, so just remember that.

Seems to me like you are already conceding that the Nazi government did more bad than good. The Soviet Union did more bad than good. WHY, though?

Contrary to your assumptions, a society with a minimalist government can defend itself, with the free market providing security services. If you disagree, please explain. I’ve already made arguments in the public goods thread and the small government thread.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Feelings are illogical and get you into trouble; I go off my head. Guess what dear... never heard of any women in the military having to take a knife to the bathroom because they were afraid of being rapped. Have you been in the military for years and years? I have and I think I would of heard about it by now. My chances of being rapped in the civilian world is just as good as on a military base. Did Lew Rockwell tell you that? If he did, that means he's pretty dishonest or just found a few women who felt that way and decided to play sensationalism and try to pretend that all or even the majority are doing that.

Sigh, it wasn't Lew Rockwell who wrote that rape article. lewrockwell.com sometimes runs articles that Lew doesn't totally agree with. Perhaps you're right to question the article. Let's drop it, OK?

Originally posted by Augustine2004

Seems to me like you are already conceding that the Nazi government did more bad than good. The Soviet Union did more bad than good. WHY, though?

Are you sitting in prision right now?

Contrary to your assumptions, a society with a minimalist government can defend itself, with the free market providing security services. If you disagree, please explain. I’ve already made arguments in the public goods thread and the small government thread.

I don't recall saying that big government was good or bad.

Sigh, it wasn't Lew Rockwell who wrote that rape article. lewrockwell.com sometimes runs articles that Lew doesn't totally agree with. Perhaps you're right to question the article. Let's drop it, OK?

But he still let it on despite the fact that it wasn't the facts or just downright misrepresetation.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

Are you sitting in prision right now?

The President now has the 'legal' authorization to have me declared a terrorist through the Military Commissions Act and have me locked away for good, without a trial. One thing that keeps me safe - so far - is that the government fears public indigation and rebellion. Another thing is that the public still has some regard for freedom of speech. Now, will you please answer my question and stop dodging?

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

I[ don't recall saying that big government was good or bad.

You're either dodging or are a poor reader.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror

But he still let it on despite the fact that it wasn't the facts or just downright misrepresetation.

Good point. He should have checked if he didn't. If he did, YOU misrepresented the facts.

Originally posted by Augustine2004

The President now has the 'legal' authorization to have me declared a terrorist through the Military Commissions Act and have me locked away for good, without a trial. One thing that keeps me safe - so far - is that the government fears public indigation and rebellion. Another thing is that the public still has some regard for freedom of speech. Now, will you please answer my question and stop dodging?

BUSH IS AN IDIOT!!!!

So when shall I be declared a terrorist and thrown into prison?

You're either dodging or are a poor reader.

I'm not here to debate you on the merits of small government. Go do that in another thread. I am here to debate you about the military being evil.

Good point. He should have checked if he didn't. If he did, YOU misrepresented the facts.

I am in the military, you are not. So why would I misrepresent something when I'm there observing it for myself? I carry a knife on me and not because I'm afraid of rape, but because a pocket knife is really useful in many situations and I have used it for several things. I really do doubt his story is true or an accurate representation of the entire military since I haven't heard about it till now.