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Let's see this "Theory of Evolution"
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 08:09 PM
 
 
 
 
 
{1}One of the single most fundamental assumptions we make in these discussions is that some sort of "theory" of evolution exists. Clearly this is something that we should not have to assume. If it exists, it should be available. Indeed, it must have been available in the past, if it has been tested already, right?

I would like to read it. I may be mistaken, and I may learn something. At this moment, I do not believe there is an actual "theory" of evolution. I used to take it for granted; I've stopped taking it for granted. Until I see an actual theory, I shall consider it vaporware.

We are continually bombarded with "the theory of evolution says" or "does not say" such-and-such. There's an easy way to find out what it says - if it exists! Somehow, we never see any "theory" consulted when these disputes arise. Why this is the case can no longer be any mystery.

{2} Let us consider an oft-overlooked aspect of the term 'theory' in the English language.

"News theory"

http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/theoryc/

"Car and tractor theory"

http://www.dsa.gov.uk/

"Music theory"

http://library.thinkquest.org/15413/theory/theory.htm

"Feminist theory"

http://www.cddc.vt.edu/feminism/

Enough with the sources.

"Opening theory"
"Number theory"
"Particle theory"
"Graph theory"
"Game theory"

The dictionary doesn't make a critical distinction when it defines 'theory'. The meaning of the term changes substantially depending on placement. "The theory of X" refers to a single, specific theory. "X theory" refers to a collection of ideas. This is the loosest of all known definitions, even looser than the common "any old idea" definition. "X theory" can incorporate any number of real, make-believe, and even contradictory ideas.

{3}I want to point out another thing: When using the posterior application of the term 'theory', the implication is neutral as to scientific validity. Germ theory is valid. Why then is it not "the theory of germs"? Because there's actually a separate theory for each germ. But particle theory is what it is. It cannot all be true because some of the ideas are inconsistent with each other.

I maintain some of the things we see called "X theory" are scientifically without any merit at all. I'd name names, but I prefer to stay on topic. The only time 'theory' connotes merit in experimental science is when an hypothesis withstands scrutiny and legitimate testing. Such cases are called "so-and-so's theory of such-and-such". The placement of the term differs. If I'm mistaken about how our Language works, I'd like to see some counter-examples. I prefer older ones because skills, knowledge. and respect have been declining steadily when you're talking about English. Examples from partially literate sources will not impress me either.

{4}Does "Evolution theory" exist? Certainly. I've seen tons of ideas involving different sorts of "evolution". Is there a scientific "Theory of Evolution"? No. Some evolutionists point to the dictionary, and a chosen definition. It may indeed differ from "any old idea". But it is not scientific. It is improperly employed when the claim is made that a "Theory of Evolution" exists. Perhaps some dictionaries make the distinction. I would like to see them all do so. Of course the Language itself takes precedence over dictionaries in any case. Their job is not to dictate reality, but to report it - an essentially scientific task.

I repeat once more, as this one of the things people are most likely to "overlook": EVOLUTION THEORY DOES EXIST.

In order to meet the scientific standard, and experimentally testable, a falsifiable hypothesis must exist.

{5}If a "theory" should be presented, I intend to evaluate it. I intend to determine whether or not it is subject to experimental falsification, and meets the proper criteria. A candidate "theory" should have been stated as an hypothesis, and clearly recognizable as such. It will need to be complete. It will not consist of descriptions of a "theory"; it will have to actually be one itself. Telling you about my dog is not the same as showing you that I actually have a dog.

To those who would sell evolution, here's your chance to present your "theory". I think it's reasonable to ask to see the product, and one might even expect some degree of enthusiasm on the part of the sales staff. I admit in advance that I do not possess universal knowledge, and I make mistakes. By nature, my claim relies upon universal observation. If a properly scientific "theory of evolution" should be discovered - not some partial element, but the whole thing - what I said would be falsified. See? I know how to set an example.

IMPORTANT
{6} I am fully aware that many people believe such a "theory" exists, and they write about what they imagine. Such does not demonstrate the existence of an actual "theory". Such writings can be found anywhere. Anyone wasting my time linking me to talk about a "theory", rather than a "theory" itself will be wasting their own time.

I am only interested in seeing the alleged "theory" itself. Do not waste our time with links like the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introdu...dern_synthesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_...nary_synthesis

None of those contain the "theory" itself. Do not assume I will simply forget, either.


{7}
A phrase to avoid:

"can explain" or "can be explained by"

This is simply claiming a theory can be formulated which will explain something. Duh! That's why we have theories. A theory which simply claims theories are possible is redundant and meaningless. Candidates containing these phrases, or their kinsmen, should not be presented.

Neither is this an invitation to compose nonsense and try to pass it off. We're told again and again that the "Theory of Evolution" has already been rigoursly tested. A fresh new candidate is out of the question from the get-go. A link to an extant "theory" is in order. If you are a sincerely scientific evolutionist, you might take this matter seriously and start a thread on how to go about formulating and actual "Hypothesis of Evolution". I might even be persuaded to discuss why it cannot be done. (Obviously the loss of plasticity which accompanies existence-in-writing is a big factor.)

{8} I'll be honest and state up front what I'm expecting. I expect hostility, and a lot of blatant overlooking of things I just got done saying. I expect to observe the antithesis of mature behaviour. I expect sharing screenshots and/or excerpts to be a means of providing amusement for some of my friends. I do not expect to encounter a single evolutionist who takes the matter seriously. They certainly should - and if sincere they must, as this can hardly be written off as "a mere technicality"; but my experience as an evolutionologist tells me few, if any, actually do. The nonchalance we may expect to observe regarding correspondence with reality, as well as scientific procedures and propriety, places evolutionism squarely within the category of religious belief.

I have a suggestion for those who are tempted to make excuses for the absence of any theory: hold off a spell, and give others a chance. Maybe they can find one, eh? Okay, not really. Go ahead and make me laugh.

In order to expidite discussion, I have inserted numbers. Should the inattentive rear their heads, they can quickly be referred to the section(s) which address the things they "chance" to miss. A poor student I'd be if I couldn't learn from experience and direct observation.

Finally, for those with short attention spans, ADHD, etc. my request is simple: Show me the "theory".

 
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Darwin's part in the discussion ...along the lines: "The empirical evidence you call for is both impossible in practical terms, and in any event unnecessary. ...My way so many issues are clarified and problems solved; no other theory does nearly so well". (says wiki)

-Charles, to his son George Darwin (Link) P.S. Oct 22d. Hen. has taken your M.S. to London, & will write.— I have lately read Morley's Life of Voltaire & he insists strongly that direct attacks on Christianity (even when written with the wonderful force & vigour of Voltaire) produce little permanent effect: real good seems only to follow from slow & silent side attacks.— I have been talking on this head with Litchfield, & he strongly concurs, & insists how easily a man may for ever destroy his own influence.
 
 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 08:22 PM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 





*Sigh* You win. Your brillance is too much too bear
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 08:32 PM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 
This was discussed earlier this year:


"why evolution is not a scientific theory"


While it's always good to go back and retread the big questions, it would be more expedient for you to respond to something on that thread.

—Sam

 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 10:31 PM
 
 
 
 
This was discussed earlier this year:


"why evolution is not a scientific theory"


While it's always good to go back and retread the big questions, it would be more expedient for you to respond to something on that thread.

—Sam
8

 
    tWebber  
     
Darwin's part in the discussion ...along the lines: "The empirical evidence you call for is both impossible in practical terms, and in any event unnecessary. ...My way so many issues are clarified and problems solved; no other theory does nearly so well". (says wiki)

-Charles, to his son George Darwin (Link) P.S. Oct 22d. Hen. has taken your M.S. to London, & will write.— I have lately read Morley's Life of Voltaire & he insists strongly that direct attacks on Christianity (even when written with the wonderful force & vigour of Voltaire) produce little permanent effect: real good seems only to follow from slow & silent side attacks.— I have been talking on this head with Litchfield, & he strongly concurs, & insists how easily a man may for ever destroy his own influence.
 
 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 10:40 PM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 
I'm confused; are you referring me to Section 8?

 
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"Maker of empty boasts ... on this of all nights to give way to vanity. No. Don Quixote, take a deep breath of life and consider how it should be lived. Call nothing thine except thy soul. Love not what thou art, only what thou may become. Do not pursue pleasure ... or thou mayest have the misfortune to overtake it. Look always forward. In last year's nests there are no birds this year. Be just to all men, courteous to all women. Live in the vision of the one for whom great deeds are done ... Dulcinea."

► Peter O'Toole, "Man of La Mancha"
 
 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 10:54 PM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 
{1}One of the single most fundamental assumptions we make in these discussions is that some sort of "theory" of evolution exists. Clearly this is something that we should not have to assume. If it exists, it should be available. Indeed, it must have been available in the past, if it has been tested already, right?

I would like to read it. I may be mistaken, and I may learn something. At this moment, I do not believe there is an actual "theory" of evolution. I used to take it for granted; I've stopped taking it for granted. Until I see an actual theory, I shall consider it vaporware.

We are continually bombarded with "the theory of evolution says" or "does not say" such-and-such. There's an easy way to find out what it says - if it exists! Somehow, we never see any "theory" consulted when these disputes arise. Why this is the case can no longer be any mystery.

{2} Let us consider an oft-overlooked aspect of the term 'theory' in the English language.

"News theory"

http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/theoryc/

"Car and tractor theory"

http://www.dsa.gov.uk/

"Music theory"

http://library.thinkquest.org/15413/theory/theory.htm

"Feminist theory"

http://www.cddc.vt.edu/feminism/

Enough with the sources.

"Opening theory"
"Number theory"
"Particle theory"
"Graph theory"
"Game theory"

The dictionary doesn't make a critical distinction when it defines 'theory'. The meaning of the term changes substantially depending on placement. "The theory of X" refers to a single, specific theory. "X theory" refers to a collection of ideas. This is the loosest of all known definitions, even looser than the common "any old idea" definition. "X theory" can incorporate any number of real, make-believe, and even contradictory ideas.

{3}I want to point out another thing: When using the posterior application of the term 'theory', the implication is neutral as to scientific validity. Germ theory is valid. Why then is it not "the theory of germs"? Because there's actually a separate theory for each germ. But particle theory is what it is. It cannot all be true because some of the ideas are inconsistent with each other.

I maintain some of the things we see called "X theory" are scientifically without any merit at all. I'd name names, but I prefer to stay on topic. The only time 'theory' connotes merit in experimental science is when an hypothesis withstands scrutiny and legitimate testing. Such cases are called "so-and-so's theory of such-and-such". The placement of the term differs. If I'm mistaken about how our Language works, I'd like to see some counter-examples. I prefer older ones because skills, knowledge. and respect have been declining steadily when you're talking about English. Examples from partially literate sources will not impress me either.

{4}Does "Evolution theory" exist? Certainly. I've seen tons of ideas involving different sorts of "evolution". Is there a scientific "Theory of Evolution"? No. Some evolutionists point to the dictionary, and a chosen definition. It may indeed differ from "any old idea". But it is not scientific. It is improperly employed when the claim is made that a "Theory of Evolution" exists. Perhaps some dictionaries make the distinction. I would like to see them all do so. Of course the Language itself takes precedence over dictionaries in any case. Their job is not to dictate reality, but to report it - an essentially scientific task.

I repeat once more, as this one of the things people are most likely to "overlook": EVOLUTION THEORY DOES EXIST.

In order to meet the scientific standard, and experimentally testable, a falsifiable hypothesis must exist.

{5}If a "theory" should be presented, I intend to evaluate it. I intend to determine whether or not it is subject to experimental falsification, and meets the proper criteria. A candidate "theory" should have been stated as an hypothesis, and clearly recognizable as such. It will need to be complete. It will not consist of descriptions of a "theory"; it will have to actually be one itself. Telling you about my dog is not the same as showing you that I actually have a dog.

To those who would sell evolution, here's your chance to present your "theory". I think it's reasonable to ask to see the product, and one might even expect some degree of enthusiasm on the part of the sales staff. I admit in advance that I do not possess universal knowledge, and I make mistakes. By nature, my claim relies upon universal observation. If a properly scientific "theory of evolution" should be discovered - not some partial element, but the whole thing - what I said would be falsified. See? I know how to set an example.

IMPORTANT
{6} I am fully aware that many people believe such a "theory" exists, and they write about what they imagine. Such does not demonstrate the existence of an actual "theory". Such writings can be found anywhere. Anyone wasting my time linking me to talk about a "theory", rather than a "theory" itself will be wasting their own time.

I am only interested in seeing the alleged "theory" itself. Do not waste our time with links like the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introdu...dern_synthesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_...nary_synthesis

None of those contain the "theory" itself. Do not assume I will simply forget, either.


{7}
A phrase to avoid:

"can explain" or "can be explained by"

This is simply claiming a theory can be formulated which will explain something. Duh! That's why we have theories. A theory which simply claims theories are possible is redundant and meaningless. Candidates containing these phrases, or their kinsmen, should not be presented.

Neither is this an invitation to compose nonsense and try to pass it off. We're told again and again that the "Theory of Evolution" has already been rigoursly tested. A fresh new candidate is out of the question from the get-go. A link to an extant "theory" is in order. If you are a sincerely scientific evolutionist, you might take this matter seriously and start a thread on how to go about formulating and actual "Hypothesis of Evolution". I might even be persuaded to discuss why it cannot be done. (Obviously the loss of plasticity which accompanies existence-in-writing is a big factor.)

{8} I'll be honest and state up front what I'm expecting. I expect hostility, and a lot of blatant overlooking of things I just got done saying. I expect to observe the antithesis of mature behaviour. I expect sharing screenshots and/or excerpts to be a means of providing amusement for some of my friends. I do not expect to encounter a single evolutionist who takes the matter seriously. They certainly should - and if sincere they must, as this can hardly be written off as "a mere technicality"; but my experience as an evolutionologist tells me few, if any, actually do. The nonchalance we may expect to observe regarding correspondence with reality, as well as scientific procedures and propriety, places evolutionism squarely within the category of religious belief.

I have a suggestion for those who are tempted to make excuses for the absence of any theory: hold off a spell, and give others a chance. Maybe they can find one, eh? Okay, not really. Go ahead and make me laugh.

In order to expidite discussion, I have inserted numbers. Should the inattentive rear their heads, they can quickly be referred to the section(s) which address the things they "chance" to miss. A poor student I'd be if I couldn't learn from experience and direct observation.

Finally, for those with short attention spans, ADHD, etc. my request is simple: Show me the "theory".
I for one have no intention of playing word games with you over what a theory is. You clearly have a large set of requirements for how any discussion must be presented, with an eye to finding any loophole you can to declare any response "insufficient"

Not a game I want to play. It is though, to be sure, nothing more than a game.

However , the theory of evolution does exist, is rigorously formulated, and constantly used. Your protests notwithstanding. The way you've set this up, it would be almost impossible to talk about any extant scientific theory.

Have fun in your little sandbox.


Jim

 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 11:01 PM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 
I was going to suggest this

What Evolution Is - Ernst Mayr

...but these seem more appropriate for our honesty-challenged pal here.

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Evolution - Leslie Alan Horvitz

Evolution For Dummies

Seriously, this moron thinks science works like the church, where you have a Supreme High Council chiseling the "official" ToE into stone tablets and placing it on an altar, next to the sacrificed barbecued kittens.

The theory is an IDEA, not a single edict from on high that must be chanted like a mantra before entering the lab. As an IDEA, it may be found in any of hundreds of good college science textbooks and popular press science guides readily available. But first you have to want to learn, something you have shown you are obviously not interested in.

- T
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ev for dummies.jpg (46.9 KB, 4 views)

 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 11:12 PM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 
Cue the disingenuous moron loudly proclaiming "no evo could show me the theory!!!" in

4....

3....

2....

- T

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"First understand, then criticize! Not the other way round." - Per Ahlberg, TR

"I have always said, but you ignore, that the world has warmed this century. " - Glenn Morton

"In all of these efforts, [to promote creationism in schools] the creationists make abundant use of a simple tactic: They lie. They lie continually, they lie prodigiously, and they lie because they must." - William J. Benetta, The Textbook Letter, Nov/Dec 1995
 
 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 11:17 PM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 
TREE OF LIFE

Read this in its entirety

THEN read a an updated genetics textbook.

And if you'd like a detailed history of the theory of evolution and the many twists and turns that have happened through both debate and evidence READ SJ Gould's "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory".

You did say that you wanted to know about the TOE right? Have fun, see you back in a year and a half at the minimum.

 
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Old
  October 29th 2009 , 11:21 PM
 
 
 
 
TREE OF LIFE

Read this in its entirety

THEN read a an updated genetics textbook.

And if you'd like a detailed history of the theory of evolution and the many twists and turns that have happened through both debate and evidence READ SJ Gould's "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory".

You did say that you wanted to know about the TOE right? Have fun, see you back in a year and a half at the minimum.
Nah, this moron wants 150+ years of science from hundreds of different fields spoon fed to him as a 30 second sound bite. Probably the outer limit of his attention span I'm guessing.

- T

 
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"First understand, then criticize! Not the other way round." - Per Ahlberg, TR

"I have always said, but you ignore, that the world has warmed this century. " - Glenn Morton

"In all of these efforts, [to promote creationism in schools] the creationists make abundant use of a simple tactic: They lie. They lie continually, they lie prodigiously, and they lie because they must." - William J. Benetta, The Textbook Letter, Nov/Dec 1995
 
 
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Old
  October 30th 2009 , 12:16 AM
 
In reply to this post by Tiggy
 
 
 
Cue the disingenuous moron loudly proclaiming "no evo could show me the theory!!!" in

4....

3....

2....

- T
That's all he's really after. It's like Kent Hovind's promise to pay $250,000 to anyone who could provide evidence for evolution

He - maybe Hovind has laptop privs in jail?

(BTW - you will notice how Hovind defines the GToE! Jorge really is the tax evader's little disciple!)

Jim

 
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Old
  October 30th 2009 , 12:21 AM
 
 
 
 
I for one have no intention of playing word games with you over what a theory is. You clearly have a large set of requirements for how any discussion must be presented, with an eye to finding any loophole you can to declare any response "insufficient"

Not a game I want to play. It is though, to be sure, nothing more than a game.

However , the theory of evolution does exist, is rigorously formulated, and constantly used. Your protests notwithstanding. The way you've set this up, it would be almost impossible to talk about any extant scientific theory.

Have fun in your little sandbox.


Jim
I'm sure many will agree it's unreasonable to ask to see the "theory". There are many unreasonable people hereabouts.

You may choose to believe in vaporware. Have fun convincing yourself.

 
    tWebber  
     
Darwin's part in the discussion ...along the lines: "The empirical evidence you call for is both impossible in practical terms, and in any event unnecessary. ...My way so many issues are clarified and problems solved; no other theory does nearly so well". (says wiki)

-Charles, to his son George Darwin (Link) P.S. Oct 22d. Hen. has taken your M.S. to London, & will write.— I have lately read Morley's Life of Voltaire & he insists strongly that direct attacks on Christianity (even when written with the wonderful force & vigour of Voltaire) produce little permanent effect: real good seems only to follow from slow & silent side attacks.— I have been talking on this head with Litchfield, & he strongly concurs, & insists how easily a man may for ever destroy his own influence.
 
 
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Old
  October 30th 2009 , 12:23 AM
 
In reply to this post by Tiggy
 
 
 
I was going to suggest this

What Evolution Is - Ernst Mayr

...but these seem more appropriate for our honesty-challenged pal here.

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Evolution - Leslie Alan Horvitz

Evolution For Dummies

Seriously, this moron thinks science works like the church, where you have a Supreme High Council chiseling the "official" ToE into stone tablets and placing it on an altar, next to the sacrificed barbecued kittens.

The theory is an IDEA, not a single edict from on high that must be chanted like a mantra before entering the lab. As an IDEA, it may be found in any of hundreds of good college science textbooks and popular press science guides readily available. But first you have to want to learn, something you have shown you are obviously not interested in.

- T
6

 
    tWebber  
     
Darwin's part in the discussion ...along the lines: "The empirical evidence you call for is both impossible in practical terms, and in any event unnecessary. ...My way so many issues are clarified and problems solved; no other theory does nearly so well". (says wiki)

-Charles, to his son George Darwin (Link) P.S. Oct 22d. Hen. has taken your M.S. to London, & will write.— I have lately read Morley's Life of Voltaire & he insists strongly that direct attacks on Christianity (even when written with the wonderful force & vigour of Voltaire) produce little permanent effect: real good seems only to follow from slow & silent side attacks.— I have been talking on this head with Litchfield, & he strongly concurs, & insists how easily a man may for ever destroy his own influence.
 
 
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CTD___ tWebber
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Old
  October 30th 2009 , 12:25 AM
 
In reply to this post by Tiggy
 
 
 
Cue the disingenuous moron loudly proclaiming "no evo could show me the theory!!!" in

4....

3....

2....

- T
What makes you so sure there's no theory to show?

 
    tWebber  
     
Darwin's part in the discussion ...along the lines: "The empirical evidence you call for is both impossible in practical terms, and in any event unnecessary. ...My way so many issues are clarified and problems solved; no other theory does nearly so well". (says wiki)

-Charles, to his son George Darwin (Link) P.S. Oct 22d. Hen. has taken your M.S. to London, & will write.— I have lately read Morley's Life of Voltaire & he insists strongly that direct attacks on Christianity (even when written with the wonderful force & vigour of Voltaire) produce little permanent effect: real good seems only to follow from slow & silent side attacks.— I have been talking on this head with Litchfield, & he strongly concurs, & insists how easily a man may for ever destroy his own influence.
 
 
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Old
  October 30th 2009 , 12:27 AM
 
 
 
 
TREE OF LIFE

Read this in its entirety

THEN read a an updated genetics textbook.

And if you'd like a detailed history of the theory of evolution and the many twists and turns that have happened through both debate and evidence READ SJ Gould's "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory".

You did say that you wanted to know about the TOE right? Have fun, see you back in a year and a half at the minimum.
6 , 8

 
    tWebber  
     
Darwin's part in the discussion ...along the lines: "The empirical evidence you call for is both impossible in practical terms, and in any event unnecessary. ...My way so many issues are clarified and problems solved; no other theory does nearly so well". (says wiki)

-Charles, to his son George Darwin (Link) P.S. Oct 22d. Hen. has taken your M.S. to London, & will write.— I have lately read Morley's Life of Voltaire & he insists strongly that direct attacks on Christianity (even when written with the wonderful force & vigour of Voltaire) produce little permanent effect: real good seems only to follow from slow & silent side attacks.— I have been talking on this head with Litchfield, & he strongly concurs, & insists how easily a man may for ever destroy his own influence.
 
 
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Old
  October 30th 2009 , 12:29 AM
 
In reply to this post by CTD___
 
 
 
6
And so the disingenuous moron ignores the answers he was given and starts blustering, right on schedule.

Hey CTD, how ballistic do you think the other mouth breathers at the Fundy board you hang out on would react if I started a thread there claiming "Who is this Jesus character, I can't see him anywhere. Show him to me right now, but you can't use the Bible as a reference".

BTW, I took you up on your mouthy claim that no evos would debate you here. Ball's in your court.

- T

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"First understand, then criticize! Not the other way round." - Per Ahlberg, TR

"I have always said, but you ignore, that the world has warmed this century. " - Glenn Morton

"In all of these efforts, [to promote creationism in schools] the creationists make abundant use of a simple tactic: They lie. They lie continually, they lie prodigiously, and they lie because they must." - William J. Benetta, The Textbook Letter, Nov/Dec 1995
 
 
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