It's The Ecomomy Stupid...

[carpedm9587]

Why should the rich be punished?

Who is being punished? Everyone is subject to the exact same tax rate. What you need to live is tax-free. The excess is taxed. All business taxes eliminated. How is that "punishment?" Because the poor rich person has to make due with $1.1M instead of $1.5M? SOrry. To those whom much is given, much is expected.

They earned their money.

Horse hockey. Explain to me how one man can be worth tens of thousands per hour while another is worth dollars per hour? ANd why, I ask you, do we tax capital gains, for which virtually NO labor is expended, at a rate lower than ordinary income? The capital gains tax is specifically aimed at the rich, who make 84%+ of the capital gains in this country.

They worked hard for it and succeeded. Yet you want to punish success. Destroy the American dream. Crush innovation and enterprise. Discourage people from even trying. Why try to become successful if all that happens is that the government takes it all away?

These old right-wing sops just don't work on me, Sparko. If you want to defend those who are laughing at your ignorance as they cash their huge checks, go for it. I, for one, will not join those ranks. The current economic system is badly skewed to the wealthy at the expense of the lower and middle classes. It is time for a change.

What is amazing to me is how successfully the wealthy and the Republicans have brainwashed so many of the "great unwashed" to defend their right to oppress the very people defending them. It is the most amazing thing to watch.

[Sparko]

Who is being punished? Everyone is subject to the exact same tax rate. What you need to live is tax-free. The excess is taxed. All business taxes eliminated. How is that "punishment?" Because the poor rich person has to make due with $1.1M instead of $1.5M? SOrry. To those whom much is given, much is expected.

that is the crux of the problem right there. The rich aren't "given" their money. They earned it. And you are the one punishing them with incredibly high taxes in your scenario.

Horse hockey. Explain to me how one man can be worth tens of thousands per hour while another is worth dollars per hour? ANd why, I ask you, do we tax capital gains, for which virtually NO labor is expended, at a rate lower than ordinary income? The capital gains tax is specifically aimed at the rich, who make 84%+ of the capital gains in this country.

They earned it because they started a company, created a product people wanted, hired people to work for them and benefited from their efforts and creativity. They took all the risk. Someone like me, who doesn't want to take such risk, works for someone else, so I don't benefit as much, nor do I have as much to lose. I have traded security for comfort and I am good with that. Others take the risks and change the world and they deserve the benefits of that: becoming rich.

I think the capital gains tax should be eliminated. It is just a way for the government to double dip.

These old right-wing sops just don't work on me, Sparko. If you want to defend those who are laughing at your ignorance as they cash their huge checks, go for it. I, for one, will not join those ranks. The current economic system is badly skewed to the wealthy at the expense of the lower and middle classes. It is time for a change.

What is amazing to me is how successfully the wealthy and the Republicans have brainwashed so many of the "great unwashed" to defend their right to oppress the very people defending them. It is the most amazing thing to watch.

According to you, you ARE one of those horrible rich people you keep complaining about so I think I will just pretty much ignore what you have to say on the matter as a self-loathing rich guy.

Most people want to become rich. And in the USA they have the opportunity to do so if they work hard and take the risks. They are not "oppressed" by the rich like you claim. Do you oppress your employees, Carp?

[carpedm9587]

that is the crux of the problem right there. The rich aren't "given" their money. They earned it. And you are the one punishing them with incredibly high taxes in your scenario.

Horse hockey. You have yet to provide an explanation for how one man's labor can be worth thousands or tens of thousands more than another man's labor. Nor have you explained why the one source of income primarily accessible by the wealthy and for which NO labor is required is intentionally taxed at a lower rate than all ordinary income. Sorry, Sparko, the "poor rich person" routine is just a non-starter.

They earned it because they started a company, created a product people wanted, hired people to work for them and benefited from their efforts and creativity. They took all the risk.

And for all of that they justifiably can expect to earn a higher salary than their employees, so long as their employees are being paid a living wage.. Every penny of salary they take that deprives their employees of a living wage is theft of labor, pure and simple.

Someone like me, who doesn't want to take such risk, works for someone else, so I don't benefit as much, nor do I have as much to lose. I have traded security for comfort and I am good with that. Others take the risks and change the world and they deserve the benefits of that: becoming rich.

See above.

I think the capital gains tax should be eliminated. It is just a way for the government to double dip.

Wow - so let's give the wealthy even MORE tax breaks. You just love to be financially punished, don't you. So where do you think we'll get the funds to replace the revenue lost by eliminating the capital gains tax? And where on earth do you see a "double dip?"

According to you, you ARE one of those horrible rich people you keep complaining about so I think I will just pretty much ignore what you have to say on the matter as a self-loathing rich guy.

Nope! I have never paid any employee less than a living wage, and have actually exceeded living wage for anyone that has worked for me. Indeed, if they do the same work I do, they get almost the same income I make. The differential between me and my lowest paid employee is never more than 1:4. I have managed to make myself financially comfortable AND made sure that anyone working for me is also in a good financial state. Compare that to the WalMart CEO walking away with $24M a year (before perks) when their lowest paid employee gets minimum wage and no benefits. Simply by lowering their salary to $20M, every single WalMart employee could see a salary increase of $2/hour.

This is what I refer to as "theft of labor."

Most people want to become rich. And in the USA they have the opportunity to do so if they work hard and take the risks. They are not "oppressed" by the rich like you claim. Do you oppress your employees, Carp?

The wealthy in the U.S. have been increasingly oppressing the lower classes, as evidence by the increasing success they have had in swinging laws to benefit them at the expense of the lower and middle classes, widening the gap between rich and poor in the U.S. for the past 40 years. They did so again with the last tax cut, because the party that champions them had a trifecta at the federal level.

And they have successfully brainwashed people like you, who are on the receiving end of that increasing gap and disadvantage, to defend their behavior and their right to continue to build their wealth on your back. How you managed to be so completely conned I will never know.

[seer]

That's false, Seer. The bulk of the tax cuts went to the wealthy. This is because when you combine the direct savings the wealthy received from the personal tax cuts, and the indirect benefit they received when the companies you cite used the money to do stock buybacks and jack up the price of the stock, the bulk of the benefit ended up in the pockets of the wealthy. You can twist the stats any way you want to, but you cannot avoid that reality.

You are correct they they did get a smaller percent lower their personal tax rate, but it is the Corporation that got the buy back. And sometimes that increases the value of the stocks that one personally holds, but that is across the board for all stock holders, and it does not always increase the value of the stocks, as my past link showed.

First, those workers made a fraction of the money that went into making that yacht, so this tired old hackneyed cliche is pointless. If the the money that went into tax cuts was redirected into infrastructure - the jobs would still exist, we'd have better roads, and the poor rich person might have to do without another yacht.

The free market is not a cliche Carp, it is how it works. And better roads? I thought Obama's stimulus was supposed to take care of that?

As for "what the market bears" - that is a free market point of view - and free markets have one metric: money. Everything else will be sacrificed to money. When there is a glut of workers, there will be a race to the bottom for salaries, leaving the rich rich and the workers increasingly poor.

Again Carp, that is a complete falsehood, as my link showed the poor in this country have never done better. And like my other link made clear NO system has done more to lift people out of poverty.

Every time he/she took the majority of the money generated by your labor.

That is pure Marxism! No one forced me to work for them, and no one prevented me from starting my own business. Hell I know people who make more than me doing lawn care.

Apparently, you don't. What you seem to want to do is defend his right to continue to steal your labor and the labor of everyone else that is getting a minute fraction of the money generated by their labor.

How is he stealing my labor when I freely agreed to the terms of my pay package and benefits?

I have presented the evidence: the salary and wealth disparity in the U.S. - which has been growing since the 1980s. You have failed to make any argument to justify how one man's labor is worth dollars per hour and another man's labor is worth tens of thousands of dollars.

You are crying fairness again! Why is an actor worth 15 million a movie, when the grip man only gets union wages? How do you justify that?

[Sparko]

[QUOTE=carpedm9587;632002]Horse hockey. You have yet to provide an explanation for how one man's labor can be worth thousands or tens of thousands more than another man's labor. Nor have you explained why the one source of income primarily accessible by the wealthy and for which NO labor is required is intentionally taxed at a lower rate than all ordinary income. Sorry, Sparko, the "poor rich person" routine is just a non-starter.[/quote I explained it directly below in your quote. They took the risk, they innovated, they created. That is why they make more than the guy they hired to build the widget. That is what capitalism is: You can earn as much as you want if you are willing to create something someone else wants. The owner wants someone to build their widgets so they want your labor. If you were the only one providing that labor then you could ask what you wanted. But since most labor is not exclusive, the laborers have to compete with each other and that determines what they are paid. That is why a engineer is paid more than a factory worker. Their skills are less available and in more demand. That is why an engineer makes $50/hour and a burger flipper makes $9.

And for all of that they justifiably can expect to earn a higher salary than their employees, so long as their employees are being paid a living wage.. Every penny of salary they take that deprives their employees of a living wage is theft of labor, pure and simple.

If the worker agrees to work for $20/hour then they have nothing to complain about. Nobody is forcing anyone to work for unfair wages. They are free to work elsewhere or start their own business. Life isn't fair. Nobody "deserves" a living wage. They need to work for it.

Wow - so let's give the wealthy even MORE tax breaks. You just love to be financially punished, don't you. So where do you think we'll get the funds to replace the revenue lost by eliminating the capital gains tax? And where on earth do you see a "double dip?"

The government taxes you on the money you spend to buy the stocks, then when the stocks increase they tax you again. They don't give you back money if the stocks go down in price. And it isn't just on the rich, it is on everyone. Sell your house? pay capital gains tax.

Nope! I have never paid any employee less than a living wage, and have actually exceeded living wage for anyone that has worked for me. Indeed, if they do the same work I do, they get almost the same income I make. The differential between me and my lowest paid employee is never more than 1:4. I have managed to make myself financially comfortable AND made sure that anyone working for me is also in a good financial state. Compare that to the WalMart CEO walking away with $24M a year (before perks) when their lowest paid employee gets minimum wage and no benefits. Simply by lowering their salary to $20M, every single WalMart employee could see a salary increase of $2/hour.

What you mean all rich people aren't trying to rip off their employees? Wow. Amazing admission on your part. Or maybe you are just a special case and we need to punish all the OTHER rich people for being so greedy?

This is what I refer to as "theft of labor."

Did the walmart employees agree to work for that wage? Did walmart hold a gun to their head?

The wealthy in the U.S. have been increasingly oppressing the lower classes, as evidence by the increasing success they have had in swinging laws to benefit them at the expense of the lower and middle classes, widening the gap between rich and poor in the U.S. for the past 40 years. They did so again with the last tax cut, because the party that champions them had a trifecta at the federal level.

Except for you of course. You are the "good rich guy"

I benefited from the last tax cut as did millions of other middle class people. And rich people. The more you made the more taxes you were paying, the more the tax cut benefited you. simple math. I don't begrudge rich people being rich. It isn't taking money away from me. They are not preventing me or anyone else from becoming rich ourselves. There is no oppression going on.

And they have successfully brainwashed people like you, who are on the receiving end of that increasing gap and disadvantage, to defend their behavior and their right to continue to build their wealth on your back. How you managed to be so completely conned I will never know.

Says the rich guy who claims to be so different from the other rich guys.

[carpedm9587]

I explained it directly below in your quote. They took the risk, they innovated, they created. That is why they make more than the guy they hired to build the widget. That is what capitalism is: You can earn as much as you want if you are willing to create something someone else wants. The owner wants someone to build their widgets so they want your labor. If you were the only one providing that labor then you could ask what you wanted. But since most labor is not exclusive, the laborers have to compete with each other and that determines what they are paid. That is why a engineer is paid more than a factory worker. Their skills are less available and in more demand. That is why an engineer makes $50/hour and a burger flipper makes $9.

Sorry, Sparko, but "they took the risk" justifies a difference in wage. It doesn't justify a 1:000:1 or 10,000:1 factor nor does it justify paying anyone less than a living wage/benefits when they are working full time so long as the owner/founder is walking away with millions.

If the worker agrees to work for $20/hour then they have nothing to complain about. Nobody is forcing anyone to work for unfair wages. They are free to work elsewhere or start their own business. Life isn't fair. Nobody "deserves" a living wage. They need to work for it.

And when there is a glut of employees - that freedom drops because unconstrained capitalism drives salaries to the least common denominator. And taxation further diminishes the income of the poor more significantly than the income of the wealthy because it taxes their COL wage, not their excess.

The government taxes you on the money you spend to buy the stocks, then when the stocks increase they tax you again. They don't give you back money if the stocks go down in price. And it isn't just on the rich, it is on everyone. Sell your house? pay capital gains tax.

First - they money is taken on the GAINS - not on what you invested. And yes, you can use losses in capital gains to mitigate future tax, so they do "give it back" if you suffer losses. Second, 84% of ownership is by the wealthy and super wealthy. The poor and lower middle class doesn't have the free capital to invest - so capital gains predominantly benefit the wealthy - by a LARGE margin.

What you mean all rich people aren't trying to rip off their employees?

No - what I mean is what I said: anyone taking home millions while their employees do not have a living wage/benefits is making their money on the backs of their employees - and at their expense. Those who are not doing this are not ripping off their employees.

Wow. Amazing admission on your part. Or maybe you are just a special case and we need to punish all the OTHER rich people for being so greedy?

You will have to demonstrate how any of this applies to me. All my employees have a living+ wage and none of them makes less than 1/4 of what I make. I practice what I preach in my business and my life.

Did the walmart employees agree to work for that wage? Did walmart hold a gun to their head?

When that is the only game in town for many of these people, Sparko - then they are being taken advantage of. When the gap between rich and poor continues to widen because the rich can influence the laws in their favor, they are being taken advantage of. Are you so blind to the dynamic between rich and poor that you cannot actually see it happening? I find that amazing.

Except for you of course. You are the "good rich guy"

I am hardly "rich," but yes - I practice what I preach. Sorry if that disappoints you.

I benefited from the last tax cut as did millions of other middle class people. And rich people. The more you made the more taxes you were paying, the more the tax cut benefited you. simple math. I don't begrudge rich people being rich. It isn't taking money away from me. They are not preventing me or anyone else from becoming rich ourselves. There is no oppression going on.

Yes - you got a few dollars a day as a sop, and you are smiling contentedly with your pittance. Congratulations. You may be content to be taken advantage of Sparko, in which case you are definitely in the right party. Many others are not - and I am in their camp.

Says the rich guy who claims to be so different from the other rich guys.

Rich? No. My salary is low six figures - my retirement savings is low seven. Half of it is from gains in my investments and it took me 40 years to put that away. Upper-middle class at best. As best I can tell, top 5% but not top 1%. And I am not "so different" from others - I simply live my ethics.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that I've been successful, and think others should be achieving success following the same ethical framework. I have to wonder who has the "anti-rich" perspective here. I certainly don't. I simply think the wealthy should be paying their workers an equitable wage, should have their COL income tax free, and should be paying the same tax burden (% wise) on their excess as everyone else. I have a hard time seeing how ANY of that should be a cause for dismay.

[Sparko]

Sorry, Sparko, but "they took the risk" justifies a difference in wage. It doesn't justify a 1:000:1 or 10,000:1 factor nor does it justify paying anyone less than a living wage/benefits when they are working full time so long as the owner/founder is walking away with millions.

Life isn't fair. People are promised only opportunity, not success. Who are you to determine what factor is "fair?"

Most businesses do take care of their employees just like you do, Carp. If they mistreat them, they lose them. That's the beauty of the free market. You can work anywhere you want, even for yourself.

And when there is a glut of employees - that freedom drops because unconstrained capitalism drives salaries to the least common denominator. And taxation further diminishes the income of the poor more significantly than the income of the wealthy because it taxes their COL wage, not their excess.

Right now there is a shortage of employees. And taxes have been cut. So what are you complaining about?

First - they money is taken on the GAINS - not on what you invested. And yes, you can use losses in capital gains to mitigate future tax, so they do "give it back" if you suffer losses. Second, 84% of ownership is by the wealthy and super wealthy. The poor and lower middle class doesn't have the free capital to invest - so capital gains predominantly benefit the wealthy - by a LARGE margin.

Since they have the most money, they will be the most affected. simple logic.

No - what I mean is what I said: anyone taking home millions while their employees do not have a living wage/benefits is making their money on the backs of their employees - and at their expense. Those who are not doing this are not ripping off their employees.

Where in the constitution or declaration does it promise anyone a living wage? Life isn't fair. If you don't like what you are being paid, start your own business, or get some training, or work elsewhere. The only limit to a person's success is themselves. The opportunity is out there. We see rags to riches stories all the time.

You will have to demonstrate how any of this applies to me. All my employees have a living+ wage and none of them makes less than 1/4 of what I make. I practice what I preach in my business and my life.

You keep acting like all rich people are greedy sobs who just want to stomp on their employees. Well either you are apparently the exception to the rule, or your characterization of rich people is misguided. Most business owners take care of their workers.

When that is the only game in town for many of these people, Sparko - then they are being taken advantage of. When the gap between rich and poor continues to widen because the rich can influence the laws in their favor, they are being taken advantage of. Are you so blind to the dynamic between rich and poor that you cannot actually see it happening? I find that amazing.

life isn't fair.

I am hardly "rich," but yes - I practice what I preach. Sorry if that disappoints you.

Maybe you aren't the only one Carp.

Yes - you got a few dollars a day as a sop, and you are smiling contentedly with your pittance. Congratulations. You may be content to be taken advantage of Sparko, in which case you are definitely in the right party. Many others are not - and I am in their camp.

IF they don't like it, they can go work elsewhere.

Rich? No. My salary is low six figures - my retirement savings is low seven. Half of it is from gains in my investments and it took me 40 years to put that away. Upper-middle class at best. As best I can tell, top 5% but not top 1%. And I am not "so different" from others - I simply live my ethics.

as do most other business owners.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that I've been successful, and think others should be achieving success following the same ethical framework. I have to wonder who has the "anti-rich" perspective here. I certainly don't. I simply think the wealthy should be paying their workers an equitable wage, should have their COL income tax free, and should be paying the same tax burden (% wise) on their excess as everyone else. I have a hard time seeing how ANY of that should be a cause for dismay.

Well if I thought like you do, I would be demanding that we take your money and give it to people like me who work hard and don't have as much as you do. That would be fair right? You don't deserve 6 figures when there are people like me only making 5 figures and barely getting by.

[carpedm9587]

You are correct they they did get a smaller percent lower their personal tax rate, but it is the Corporation that got the buy back. And sometimes that increases the value of the stocks that one personally holds, but that is across the board for all stock holders, and it does not always increase the value of the stocks, as my past link showed.

And you continue to want to ignore that 84% of those stocks are held by the top 5% in this country, so those buy backs went predominantly into the enriching the rich even further. Ignoring it does not make it go away, Seer. The primary beneficiaries of the tax cut, both in raw numbers and as a percentage, were the wealthiest members of our society - those who actually need it the least. The rest got a sop to keep them complacent - and you apparently have fallen for it.

The free market is not a cliche Carp, it is how it works. And better roads? I thought Obama's stimulus was supposed to take care of that?

A free market economy is a formula for oppression and corruption, and always has been. That is because it values one and only one metric: money. Some of us care about more than money. The stimulus under Obama was never directly targeted to infrastructure, AFAIK. Part of it was for "shovel-ready" projects, but not a systematic look at our infrastructure needs.

Again Carp, that is a complete falsehood, as my link showed the poor in this country have never done better. And like my other link made clear NO system has done more to lift people out of poverty.

Again, Seer, that is complete truth - which you seem to want to divert attention away from with your sidetrack on "lifting out of poverty." This is a common tactic for many on the right. Yes, we are the wealthiest nation on earth. As a consequence, the poorest of our poor have more income than the poor in any other country. But raw dollars is not the only measure. The COL is a factor. So too is the wealth disparity within the country. When you look at the data, the countries with more wealth disparity than the U.S. are predominantly developing countries or dictatorships. Of the developed countries, the U.S. is near the top. Modern estimates indicate that 10-15% of the U.S. population ($32-48M people) live in poverty - lacking the means to pay the costs of daily living. A large percentage of that block are our most elderly and fragile population.

That is pure Marxism!

You do love that refrain. Are you under the mistaken impression it intimidates me or somehow makes me gasp in dismay? Every philosophical system has its strengths and weaknesses. Marxism. Socialism. Capitalism. A wise man accepts the best of each and discards the rest. Yeah - I'm part Marxist, part Socialist, part Capitalist. Deal with it...

No one forced me to work for them, and no one prevented me from starting my own business. Hell I know people who make more than me doing lawn care.

Yep - and all of that is your right. But a tax system and economic system that then further penalizes you for making those choices is an unjust system. That you defend that system amazes me no end. I guess you like having someone else walk away with millions derived from the sweat of your brow and the work of your back. So be it. The rest of us will work for a more equitable system. Fortunately, our work (if successful) will benefit you too. Maybe you can complain about it and work to reverse it if/when it happens. After all, you appear to like to enrich other people.

How is he stealing my labor when I freely agreed to the terms of my pay package and benefits?

By using his/her money to foster a tax and economic system that is designed to continually enrich him/her and maximize his/her value while keeping yours as low as it can be kept without triggering your outrage. It's a fine line. With you they have been successful. You're the "good slave" who knows his place and defends his master's right to control your strings. Heck - you don't even appear to know you're controlled. After all - you just got an extra $5 a day thanks to your master's generosity!

You are crying fairness again! Why is an actor worth 15 million a movie, when the grip man only gets union wages? How do you justify that?

I don't. Again - ANYONE making their fortune on the backs of others is guilty of theft of labor. SO I have NO problem with using the tax system to make some effort to rebalance that dance card. Capitalism is good. Free market capitalism will always concentrate wealth and provide the wealthy with the power to continually slant the system in their favor. Democracy is the antidote, giving the populace the ability to use taxation and laws and regulation to keep that runaway effect in check.

[Sparko]

By using his/her money to foster a tax and economic system that is designed to continually enrich him/her and maximize his/her value while keeping yours as low as it can be kept without triggering your outrage. It's a fine line. With you they have been successful. You're the "good slave" who knows his place and defends his master's right to control your strings. Heck - you don't even appear to know you're controlled. After all - you just got an extra $5 a day thanks to your master's generosity!

So that is what you are doing with your employees? And they as good slaves should thank your generosity?

[Cow Poke]

I don't. Again - ANYONE making their fortune on the backs of others is guilty of theft of labor.

Henry Ford?

[seer]

And you continue to want to ignore that 84% of those stocks are held by the top 5% in this country, so those buy backs went predominantly into the enriching the rich even further. Ignoring it does not make it go away, Seer. The primary beneficiaries of the tax cut, both in raw numbers and as a percentage, were the wealthiest members of our society - those who actually need it the least. The rest got a sop to keep them complacent - and you apparently have fallen for it.

Well of course, those with more money tend to invest more in stocks, they also assume the risk. But more people today own stocks than in the past - 401Ks and all that. Need it least? Crying unfairness again.

A free market economy is a formula for oppression and corruption, and always has been. That is because it values one and only one metric: money. Some of us care about more than money. The stimulus under Obama was never directly targeted to infrastructure, AFAIK. Part of it was for "shovel-ready" projects, but not a systematic look at our infrastructure needs.

Again Carp you have not show what system has pulled more people out of poverty. And you are broad brushing all business owners. My boss makes about seven times more than me, yet he offers good health care, a decent wage, vacation and personal time with ten paid holidays.

Again, Seer, that is complete truth - which you seem to want to divert attention away from with your sidetrack on "lifting out of poverty." This is a common tactic for many on the right. Yes, we are the wealthiest nation on earth. As a consequence, the poorest of our poor have more income than the poor in any other country. But raw dollars is not the only measure. The COL is a factor. So too is the wealth disparity within the country. When you look at the data, the countries with more wealth disparity than the U.S. are predominantly developing countries or dictatorships. Of the developed countries, the U.S. is near the top. Modern estimates indicate that 10-15% of the U.S. population ($32-48M people) live in poverty - lacking the means to pay the costs of daily living. A large percentage of that block are our most elderly and fragile population.

Good so you agree that the poor are doing better than any other time in our history. And we always have the poor Carp, that is why we have a robust welfare net... Paid for by the Capitalist system.

You do love that refrain. Are you under the mistaken impression it intimidates me or somehow makes me gasp in dismay? Every philosophical system has its strengths and weaknesses. Marxism. Socialism. Capitalism. A wise man accepts the best of each and discards the rest. Yeah - I'm part Marxist, part Socialist, part Capitalist. Deal with it...

You sound confused...

Yep - and all of that is your right. But a tax system and economic system that then further penalizes you for making those choices is an unjust system. That you defend that system amazes me no end. I guess you like having someone else walk away with millions derived from the sweat of your brow and the work of your back. So be it. The rest of us will work for a more equitable system. Fortunately, our work (if successful) will benefit you too. Maybe you can complain about it and work to reverse it if/when it happens. After all, you appear to like to enrich other people.

No Carp, it was my choice. I have had opportunities to start my own contracting business, I chose not to, I didn't want to work 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Like I said my friends who did are millionaires today.

By using his/her money to foster a tax and economic system that is designed to continually enrich him/her and maximize his/her value while keeping yours as low as it can be kept without triggering your outrage. It's a fine line. With you they have been successful. You're the "good slave" who knows his place and defends his master's right to control your strings. Heck - you don't even appear to know you're controlled. After all - you just got an extra $5 a day thanks to your master's generosity!

Some times Carp you really are an ass.

I don't. Again - ANYONE making their fortune on the backs of others is guilty of theft of labor. SO I have NO problem with using the tax system to make some effort to rebalance that dance card. Capitalism is good. Free market capitalism will always concentrate wealth and provide the wealthy with the power to continually slant the system in their favor. Democracy is the antidote, giving the populace the ability to use taxation and laws and regulation to keep that runaway effect in check.

Right out of Das Kapital, the rule of the mob...

[carpedm9587]

Life isn't fair. People are promised only opportunity, not success. Who are you to determine what factor is "fair?"

So your argument is "we should do nothing to restore balance because life isn't fair?"

That's a pretty lame argument.

Most businesses do take care of their employees just like you do, Carp. If they mistreat them, they lose them. That's the beauty of the free market. You can work anywhere you want, even for yourself.

If this were true - we would not have 10-15% in poverty and a 40-year track record of increasing gap between rich and poor.

Right now there is a shortage of employees. And taxes have been cut. So what are you complaining about?

See my previous posts. I think I've been pretty clear.

Since they have the most money, they will be the most affected. simple logic.

Yeah - another old and continually returned to trope. And a false one. The disparity is not just in raw dollars, it is in percentage as well. By your argument, if the poor man gets a buck, and the rich man gets $1M, even if that means the poor man saw a 1% increase and the rich man saw a 25% increase, it's all good! Everyone got something.

What a testament to your degree of indoctrination.

Where in the constitution or declaration does it promise anyone a living wage? Life isn't fair. If you don't like what you are being paid, start your own business, or get some training, or work elsewhere. The only limit to a person's success is themselves. The opportunity is out there. We see rags to riches stories all the time.

Horse hockey. The nation cannot have 325,000,000 business owners. The ratio of business owners to employees will always skew strongly to employees. Right now the ration is about 15:1 and it has never shown significant difference. When you add that it takes capital to start a business, and the poor often cannot raise that capital, and the ways in which the system is currently strongly favored to the wealthy - you end up with the reality that economic mobility in the U.S. is at HALF the level it was in the 1940s, and continuing to decline.

Sorry, Sparko - the numbers just don't support your "poor rich people" narrative.

You keep acting like all rich people are greedy sobs who just want to stomp on their employees. Well either you are apparently the exception to the rule, or your characterization of rich people is misguided. Most business owners take care of their workers.

life isn't fair.

This appears to be your only argument: everyone should just shut up and take it because "life isn't fair." When a group is intentionally taking advantage, people of good conscience speak up and take action.

Maybe you aren't the only one Carp.

I absolutely know I am not the only one. But I am also in the minority, according to the statistics.

IF they don't like it, they can go work elsewhere.

You ignore the reality of being "locked in."

as do most other business owners.

The data does not support "most."

Well if I thought like you do, I would be demanding that we take your money and give it to people like me who work hard and don't have as much as you do. That would be fair right? You don't deserve 6 figures when there are people like me only making 5 figures and barely getting by.

If you demand that ALL people pay the SAME percentage of their excess income with their COL wage protected from tax, you have an equitable system. Everyone is taxed by the same rules, and the needs of the country are paid for out of surplus wealth. Anyone/everyone can aspire to be rich, and join the ranks of those who are contributing to the national economy. I am not going to shed huge crocodile tears because someone has to "make do" with $1.1M instead of $1.5M. You can, if you want to. I'm going to work to create a system that provides more economic mobility, not less, more quality of life, not less, and more opportunity, not less.

You can sit back and defend those working against such things. As I noted to Seer, it's kind of like watching the slave defend their master's generosity because they let them sit down for a few minutes. It's truly amazing. You and Seer appear to have swallowed, hook line and sinker, the "bad old Marxist and Socialist!" mantra and are actively defending a system that reduces your potential for economic and social mobility.

I call it the "frog syndrome."

[carpedm9587]

Well of course, those with more money tend to invest more in stocks, they also assume the risk. But more people today own stocks than in the past - 401Ks and all that. Need it least? Crying unfairness again.

Again Carp you have not show what system has pulled more people out of poverty. And you are broad brushing all business owners. My boss makes about seven times more than me, yet he offers good health care, a decent wage, vacation and personal time with ten paid holidays.

Good so you agree that the poor are doing better than any other time in our history. And we always have the poor Carp, that is why we have a robust welfare net... Paid for by the Capitalist system.

You sound confused...

No Carp, it was my choice. I have had opportunities to start my own contracting business, I chose not to, I didn't want to work 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Like I said my friends who did are millionaires today.

Some times Carp you really are an ass.

Sometimes - the truth is hard to hear.

Right out of Das Kapital, the rule of the mob...

Boy - you just love those references.

There is nothing else here for me to respond to that I haven't already responded to. You are definitely in the "brainwashed" class. Fortunately for you, there are some of us not buying the tripe of the wealthy and we will work to create a more equitable and balanced system, from which you will likely benefit. Based on your posts, I'm pretty sure you'll fight the whole thing the whole way.

You should read "What's the Matter with Kansas."

[Sparko]

So your argument is "we should do nothing to restore balance because life isn't fair?"

That's a pretty lame argument.

Life isn't fair.

Nobody is promised success, just opportunity. Everyone has the same opportunity to try and succeed or fail.

If this were true - we would not have 10-15% in poverty and a 40-year track record of increasing gap between rich and poor.

Why not? Do you think all poverty is the fault of some rich guy picking the pocket of the poor? Could it be caused by people who are unable to work, or unwilling? People who are hooked on drugs or have mental illnesses? This is why we have welfare. Paid for by taxes from capitalism.

Like seer said, you seem to be painting business owners with a mighty broad brush, while excusing yourself as the exception. Could it be that other business owners are just as socially minded as you are and care for their own workers and are not responsible for people without jobs. Are YOU responsible for the 10-15% in poverty?

See my previous posts. I think I've been pretty clear.

I have. You complain about how taxes are hurting the poor, then turn around and complain about the Trump tax cut. So you want less taxes but complain when there are less taxes.

Yeah - another old and continually returned to trope. And a false one. The disparity is not just in raw dollars, it is in percentage as well. By your argument, if the poor man gets a buck, and the rich man gets $1M, even if that means the poor man saw a 1% increase and the rich man saw a 25% increase, it's all good! Everyone got something.

Life isn't fair.

What a testament to your degree of indoctrination.

or yours.

Horse hockey. The nation cannot have 325,000,000 business owners. The ratio of business owners to employees will always skew strongly to employees. Right now the ration is about 15:1 and it has never shown significant difference. When you add that it takes capital to start a business, and the poor often cannot raise that capital, and the ways in which the system is currently strongly favored to the wealthy - you end up with the reality that economic mobility in the U.S. is at HALF the level it was in the 1940s, and continuing to decline.

Who said everyone had to be business owners or wanted to? You are burning a straw man.

I said nobody has to work for anyone. They can go work for someone else, or start their own business. They have a choice. Or they could get training and get a better skilled job. The economy and country provide opportunity. The rest is up to each person.

This appears to be your only argument: everyone should just shut up and take it because "life isn't fair." When a group is intentionally taking advantage, people of good conscience speak up and take action.

Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

I absolutely know I am not the only one. But I am also in the minority, according to the statistics.

sure you are. Oh mighty saint Carp.

You ignore the reality of being "locked in."

there is no such reality.

The data does not support "most."

prove it.

If you demand that ALL people pay the SAME percentage of their excess income with their COL wage protected from tax, you have an equitable system. Everyone is taxed by the same rules, and the needs of the country are paid for out of surplus wealth. Anyone/everyone can aspire to be rich, and join the ranks of those who are contributing to the national economy. I am not going to shed huge crocodile tears because someone has to "make do" with $1.1M instead of $1.5M. You can, if you want to. I'm going to work to create a system that provides more economic mobility, not less, more quality of life, not less, and more opportunity, not less.

You can sit back and defend those working against such things. As I noted to Seer, it's kind of like watching the slave defend their master's generosity because they let them sit down for a few minutes. It's truly amazing. You and Seer appear to have swallowed, hook line and sinker, the "bad old Marxist and Socialist!" mantra and are actively defending a system that reduces your potential for economic and social mobility.

I call it the "frog syndrome."

I call it switcheroo and changing the subject from what I said.

"Well if I thought like you do, I would be demanding that we take your money and give it to people like me who work hard and don't have as much as you do. That would be fair right? You don't deserve 6 figures when there are people like me only making 5 figures and barely getting by."

[carpedm9587]

Life isn't fair.

Nobody is promised success, just opportunity. Everyone has the same opportunity to try and succeed or fail.

And here is where you jump the rails. Everyone is NOT offered the same opportunity. Where you start impacts where you are likely to end up. This assumption on your part is part of the mantra you have been fed by your masters, and you have internalized it like a good boy - spitting it out regularly without actually thinking it through, even when the data shows you are wrong.

Why not? Do you think all poverty is the fault of some rich guy picking the pocket of the poor? Could it be caused by people who are unable to work, or unwilling? People who are hooked on drugs or have mental illnesses? This is why we have welfare. Paid for by taxes from capitalism.

And there we have it...the mantra of the rich religiously put forward by the indoctrinated. This is the land of opportunity - so anyone who is not rich (unless they are disabled or mentally ill) is poor by choice. If you didn't pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you are lazy or you chose to be poor.

"It's all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps.” MLK

Like seer said, you seem to be painting business owners with a mighty broad brush, while excusing yourself as the exception. Could it be that other business owners are just as socially minded as you are and care for their own workers and are not responsible for people without jobs. Are YOU responsible for the 10-15% in poverty?

The data tells us social consciousness reduces proportionate to wealth. The higher up the economic ladder you are, the less likely you are to be socially conscious. As a percentage, the poor and middle class give more to charity than the rich. It even appears in your bible: the widow's pence. It has always been thus. The poor and middle class tend give out of their COL wages, like the widow. The rich give out of their excess - and an excess that is overwhelmingly (but not absolutely) earned on the backs of others. That does not mean socially conscious rich people don't exist. It means they are comparatively rare - and MOSTLY the rich work to continually skew the system in their favor, and indoctrinate people like you to defend them doing so.

You seem to want to do what you always do, and point to the comparative handful of those who practice good business ethics to make the claim, "see, businesses are good!" You'r elike the man looking at a diseased apple, finding a small spot that is not rotten and screaming - "see - the apple is good!"

I have. You complain about how taxes are hurting the poor, then turn around and complain about the Trump tax cut. So you want less taxes but complain when there are less taxes.

Life isn't fair.

or yours.

Who said everyone had to be business owners or wanted to? You are burning a straw man.

I said nobody has to work for anyone. They can go work for someone else, or start their own business. They have a choice. Or they could get training and get a better skilled job. The economy and country provide opportunity. The rest is up to each person.

Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

sure you are. Oh mighty saint Carp.

there is no such reality.

prove it.

I call it switcheroo and changing the subject from what I said.

"Well if I thought like you do, I would be demanding that we take your money and give it to people like me who work hard and don't have as much as you do. That would be fair right? You don't deserve 6 figures when there are people like me only making 5 figures and barely getting by."

The rest of this is more of the same mindless tripe you've been taught to repeat like a mantra - or sideswipes at my business ethics, so there really is no point in wasting further time responding. I know how I run my business. I know what the data tells me about wealth distribution, opportunity, and social mobility. I know what the tax code tells me about who it is designed to most benefit, and I reject the indoctrination of the rich and the Republican party that has you mindlessly defending their "rights" in the face of overwhelming evidence of a system skewed to predominantly benefit the wealthy.

When/if the rest of us are successful in shifting things - you and Seer will likely benefit. If your indoctrination holds - you'll complain about it the entire time, pining for a return to the do,inance of your masters.