Mass Shooting El Paso...

[Teallaura]

I don't particularly disagree with any of this, though I'm not sure the thing about Obama is necessarily true. Seems to me that though elements on both the left and right have been moving further apart for some time now, for a lot of left-leaning types, Obama was seen as too much of a compromiser, and didn't go nearly as far as they expected him to. In many ways they saw his administration as a bit of a continuation of Bush's, especially as far as foreign policy was concerned (and some of his social issues too). Trump stomping in right after the promised hope that was Obama has acted as a major catalyst for intense divisiveness. The far left and far right have become more vocally and physically agitated, and people who were center-left/center-right are also responding by moving further to the peripheries. There's a major us vs. them dynamic happening in the US now, and while I agree that this will work in Trump's favor in the short term (I believe he'll win reelection), I believe there will be MAJOR push-back in the future. I wonder if we'll ever see a time when things will level out, or if things will just continue to get more and more extreme.

Only point I'll make is that there is research showing a considerable lurch left and no significant shift to the right. Conservatism hasn't moved much where Liberalism has.

[seer]

Conservatism hasn't moved much where Liberalism has.

I think on most issues we are still on the same page as Reagan or Buckley, even Goldwater. Compare a Scoop Jackson or Jack Kennedy or even Bill Clinton to the Democrats of today... Even Obama got slammed in the last debate...

[Teallaura]

Some shooter who has some racist leanings is not the same as an actual white supremacist, like McVeigh was. These are teenagers who are reading crap online, and are mentally disturbed enough to go out and start shooting up people. They are not sane.

And people like you and the MSM who use situations like this as a club to attack Trump and conservatives is a completely despicable political move. Even here you are dismissing the Dayton shooter as "mentally ill" but not the El Paso shooter. Why? Because the Dayton shooter was liberal and the El Paso shooter wasn't. Just grow up JimL.

Just because it will come up: legally, they most likely are sane. Dayton doesn't have enough to go on but El Paso certainly appears to be.

[Bill the Cat]

Just because it will come up: legally, they most likely are sane. Dayton doesn't have enough to go on but El Paso certainly appears to be.

Do they consider sociopathy as "sane" when it comes to insanity pleas?

[Teallaura]

I think on most issues we are still on the same page as Reagan or Buckley, even Goldwater. Compare a Scoop Jackson or Jack Kennedy or even Bill Clinton to the Democrats of today... Even Obama got slammed in the last debate...

Yep. That last bit is probably an indicator that we are finally seeing a party shift.

[Teallaura]

Do they consider sociopathy as "sane" when it comes to insanity pleas?

Yes - the legal defense requires that the person be unable to distinguish right from wrong. It's a high bar and rarely proven.

Mental illness may be a mitigating factor but rarely one that establishes the person not guilty (not the same thing as innocent.)

[Sparko]

Just because it will come up: legally, they most likely are sane. Dayton doesn't have enough to go on but El Paso certainly appears to be.

Legally sane and mentally disturbed are two different things. Legally sane only means you know the difference between right and wrong. Both shooters would fit that definition.

[oxmixmudd]

Because normal people go on shooting sprees out of the blue?

Regardless, my initial point was that if the shooter is racist or conservative, then they blame Trump for it. If they are liberal, they make it all about the poor shooter who was mentally ill. The Dayton shooter said he was a socialist, and like Elizabeth Warren, but nobody is blaming Warren for his actions. On the other hand the El Paso shooter specifically said he had his views long before Trump and yet the MSM is blaming Trump.

This sort of paranoia is foolish. And that I am coming to believe it is a quintessential characteristic of Trump's support from Christians. Shooters don't need to be mentally ill, but mental illness can produce violence in an otherwise non-violent individual.

This sort of paranoia adds yet another variable into the mix. Not only are people on the left a threat, they are actively engaged in massive conspiracies from the top to the bottom to stamp out conservative ideals and religions. The media is a primary player in this paranoid delusion (not that sometimes some bias in a report or reporter will show up 'confirming' the delusion).


For you to believe that the difference between these two shooters - one perhaps mentally ill, the other perhaps ideologically motivated, becomes 'suspicious' because the mentally ill one leans left, and the non-mentally ill one leans right is paranoia. Paranoia is fear, and fear is a powerful motivator.

The Bible has the cure for paranoia: "Perfect love casts out all fear". But a large number of us, even the majority of us, try to deal with fear some other way. The world's way.

Is there any way to approach these issues and leave the paranoia out of it? I wonder if we locked the paranoia outside how the room might appear without it.


Jim

[Teallaura]

Legally sane and mentally disturbed are two different things. Legally sane only means you know the difference between right and wrong. Both shooters would fit that definition.

Yep.

[Bill the Cat]

This sort of paranoia is foolish. And that I am coming to believe it is a quintessential characteristic of Trump's support from Christians. Shooters don't need to be mentally ill, but mental illness can produce violence in an otherwise non-violent individual.

This sort of paranoia adds yet another variable into the mix. Not only are people on the left a threat, they are actively engaged in massive conspiracies from the top to the bottom to stamp out conservative ideals and religions. The media is a primary player in this paranoid delusion (not that sometimes some bias in a report or reporter will show up 'confirming' the delusion).


For you to believe that the difference between these two shooters - one perhaps mentally ill, the other perhaps ideologically motivated, becomes 'suspicious' because the mentally ill one leans left, and the non-mentally ill one leans right is paranoia. Paranoia is fear, and fear is a powerful motivator.

The Bible has the cure for paranoia: "Perfect love casts out all fear". But a large number of us, even the majority of us, try to deal with fear some other way. The world's way.

Is there any way to approach these issues and leave the paranoia out of it? I wonder if we locked the paranoia outside how the room might appear without it.


Jim

You absolutely missed Sparko's point.

[Sparko]

This sort of paranoia is foolish.

OK...

And that I am coming to believe it is a quintessential characteristic of Trump's support from Christians.

...and then you rip right into your own paranoid screed.

[Sparko]

You absolutely missed Sparko's point.

yep. My point was that we shouldn't be blaming people in either party for the actions of these sick individuals. Every evil or mentally ill person is going to have various causes and political views that he uses to justify his actions. That doesn't mean that Democrats or Republicans, or Trump is responsible for their action. THEY are the only ones responsible for their actions. Whether they have a manifesto blaming alien squirrels, socialists, or some other race, that is their own problem.

[oxmixmudd]

OK...

...and then you rip right into your own paranoid screed.

Just watching Sparko. Go back and look at how many posts in this forum involve the very same sort of paranoia you were exhibiting.

And even if there is some sort of paranoia evident in my post, it doesn't change the fact yours was showing paranoia in spades.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

You absolutely missed Sparko's point.

Oh - I got his point. It got the most important part of his point. The paranoid part.

The secondary point - the one you think is primary - looks very different without that layer of paranoia twisting it.

Jim

[Sparko]

Just watching Sparko. Go back and look at how many posts in this forum involve the very same sort of paranoia you were exhibiting.

And even if there is some sort of paranoia evident in my post, it doesn't change the fact yours was showing paranoia in spades.

I will react differently than you though - I'll go back and see if you are right and if so I'll work on making sure I deal with it.


Jim

I have decided to try to avoid interacting with you on political matters whenever possible. I only answered you because you addressed me personally.