Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

America first?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • America first?

    If this has been addressed elsewhere here, I have missed it.

    Should the US limit the exportation of masks? There has been a spat between Trump and 3M over masks. Some of the much needed masks are being exported to places like Canada, prompting an exchange with Trudeau.

    It took some time for the FDA to alter rules over the use of nonmedical masks, 3M makes many masks for commercial purposes, not health care. 3M was given a limit on liability.

    Is 3M being obstinate? They are holding the line on prices from what I have seen, turning away from an opportunity for profit. (What has Donald Trump declared an acceptable profit level ought to be?).

    Should Italy, Latin America, or Canada get any of the masks?
    Last edited by simplicio; 04-04-2020, 02:09 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    If this has been addressed elsewhere here, I have missed it.

    Should the US limit the exportation of masks? There has been a spat between Trump and 3M over masks. Some of the much needed masks are being exported to places like Canada, prompting an exchange with Trudeau.

    It took some time for the FDA to alter rules over the use of nonmedical masks, 3M makes many masks for commercial purposes, not health care. 3M was given a limit on liability.

    Is 3M being obstinate? They are holding the line on prices from what I have seen, turning away from an opportunity for profit. (What has Donald Trump declared an acceptable profit level ought to be?).

    Should Italy, Latin America, or Canada get any of the masks?
    This has been brought up a few times in other threads, but hey you seem to have a quota of starting a dozen threads a day so I guess you have to do what you have to do.

    Here, for instance, is an exchange between little jimmy and myself after he complained about selling medical supplies (not just masks) to other countries:
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Which is exactly what several Democrat lawmakers insist on when folks like AOC and Bernie Sanders declared "Pandemics know no borders" and demanded that we lift sanctions against Iran so that we can send them medical supplies: https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...ns-iran-during
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    No, not so that we can send them medical supplies, and nowhere in that article is that stated, but so that other countries, allies, including the U.S., if a surplus exists, can send them supplies. This virus has to be conquered world wide if it's going to be conquered at all and allowing the Iranian people to suffer and die because we have differences with the government is not only immoral, but sends the wrong message to the Iranian people..
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Our lifting the ban would mean that we can send supplies. Other countries decide for themselves whether or not to comply with it or not. Some might pass their own restrictions while others might simply ignore it.

    And as the joint letter states

    We also support the U.S. offer of direct aid to Iran to combat the spread of the virus


    and

    Additionally, we encourage the U.S. to find a way to deliver aid directly to the Iranian people to support the Iranian people’s fight against Coronavirus, as many other nations have done


    So they want the U.S. to start "deliver[ing] aid directly to the Iranian people to support the Iranian people’s fight against Coronavirus" (they say nothing about only if there is a surplus) and note that other countries are already doing so (which reveals that the sanctions apply to us not other countries).

    This is a letter signed by some of the most leftist members of Congress, folks who tend to think that stuff just grows on trees and that we can just send it without endangering our own people.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      This has been brought up a few times in other threads, but hey you seem to have a quota of starting a dozen threads a day so I guess you have to do what you have to do.

      Here, for instance, is an exchange between little jimmy and myself after he complained about selling medical supplies (not just masks) to other countries:
      Okay, it has been discussed.

      But is there anything we can bring in about morality (Christian or non Christian moral systems). I get the distinct impression that the exchange had more to do with political stands, rather than any moral principles which can be applied.

      Comment


      • #4
        Here's some food for thought:
        Michael Roman the CEO of 3M sells its face masks to foreigners with cash


        Mike Lindell the CEO of MyPillow diverts 75% of his production into making face masks for American doctors and nurses


        Guess which one gets attacked by the MSM?




        Just sayin'

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Here's some food for thought:
          Michael Roman the CEO of 3M sells its face masks to foreigners with cash


          Mike Lindell the CEO of MyPillow diverts 75% of his production into making face masks for American doctors and nurses


          Guess which one gets attacked by the MSM?




          Just sayin'
          So, you are either unwilling or unable to discuss any moral principles which can be used to guide any decision making process. You are able to point to MSM.

          Just sayin'.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
            But is there anything we can bring in about morality (Christian or non Christian moral systems).
            The appropriate size of our 'moral circle' (how large or small a group of people we see ourselves as having a moral obligation to / how much that tapers off as people are more distant to us) is an interesting topic in morality.

            Conservatives seem to prefer quite 'small' / 'tight' moral circles, prioritizing the well-being of their immediate families, or their local communities, very much over society at large and over people that they see as different to them. So a conservative answer would that be that America should put America First and steal what it feels like from other countries, and if people in distant lands die as a result, that's fine.

            Whereas liberals seem to prefer quite large / infinite moral circles, where humanity in the abstract is conceived of as all of equal value, and liberals tend to feel that in theory (even if their actions in practice don't match it) they ought to strive to care as much about the well-being of a human far away from them as a human close to them. Therefore the liberal answer would be that America has no more right to masks than any other nations, and saving one American if it kills 2 Italians to do so, would be immoral.

            The moral philosopher Peter Singer has written a book on the topic (which I admittedly haven't read, but it's on my list), about how over the course of human history, humanity has on the whole tended toward gradually expanding its 'circle of moral concern'. So where once a person cared almost solely about their immediate family and almost not at all about anyone distant, that has developed over history toward people viewing themselves as having strong moral obligations to others in their city, county, and even wanting to help people in distant countries.

            The bible itself evidences this same sort of 'moral progress' in terms of an expanding circle of moral concern over its history. Initially the characters (Abraham, Lot etc) are concerned almost solely with immediate family, which develops in the OT over time into a concern for the nation of Israel as a whole, and then in the NT it expands to a concern for the world where instead of writing off the gentiles as morally irrelevant heathens it becomes understood that they too are God's children. Jesus takes the 'love thy neighbor' teaching - which, if you take it literally is very conservative and narrow in terms of how big its moral circle is - and expands it to include an out-group (the Samaritans in his parable) who would tended to be classed by his hearers among the morally objectionable heathen rather than neighbors. So on the whole, I would tend to say the bible develops from the conservative narrow moral circle viewpoint through to the liberal large moral circle viewpoint.

            Psychologist Jonathan Haidt has also done a lot of interesting work in this area with regard to his Moral Foundations theory, in which he's found by surveying people that conservatives place a lot more emphasis on "in-group" loyalty than liberals do. To stereotype a bit, conservatives tend to think it important and moral to view the world as containing a group of people they need to protect / be loyal to, who are their in-group, in contrast to the out-group whom they need to fight and oppose and protect their in-group from, and in that sense often see it as moral to hurt the out-group in order to help the in-group. Whereas liberals tend to hold a different view of morality in which they see themselves as being morally obligated to do good to everyone, and don't see the idea of hurting some to help others as a moral idea.
            Last edited by Starlight; 04-04-2020, 04:44 AM.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              So, you are either unwilling or unable to discuss any moral principles which can be used to guide any decision making process. You are able to point to MSM.

              Just sayin'.
              Whiny little pup aren't you?

              Okay, was it moral for leftists to savage Lindell for converting his business so that it could supply us with up to 50,000 masks a day, while giving a free pass to Roman for selling masks overseas? smiley smug-sly.gif

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Okay, was it moral for leftists to savage Lindell for converting his business so that it could supply us with up to 50,000 masks a day, while giving a free pass to Roman for selling masks overseas?
                Wow, you really have been whining on about that! Bee in your bonnet much?

                Firstly, I'm not ready to give out sainthood to some random CEO who realizes in the current market people will pay more for masks than for pillows. If he's maximizing profit, that's not a moral act. If if happens that he's donating the masks (I haven't looked into it), that's nice, but people make charity donations all the time, and good for them... is this an especially large charity donation which makes him stand out from the crowd?

                Secondly, American law requires companies to maximize profits. If you want the CEO of 3M to do something other than maximize profits, say, take the welfare of the people into account, perhaps America shouldn't have such a stupid law? Britain's Companies Act legally mandates company operators to have regard for community and environment and not just profits. If they can do it, you can do it. But please, don't be so pathetically hypocritical as to champion capitalism in this forum day in and day out and then whine whine whine when your capitalism causes a company to maximize profits to the detriment of the American public. Try realizing your own ideology is the problem.
                Last edited by Starlight; 04-04-2020, 05:00 AM.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Wow, you really have been whining on about that! Bee in your bonnet much?

                  Firstly, I'm not ready to give out sainthood to some random CEO who realizes in the current market people will pay more for masks than for pillows. If he's maximizing profit, that's not a moral act. If if happens that he's donating the masks (I haven't looked into it), that's nice, but people make charity donations all the time, and good for them... is this an especially large charity donation which makes him stand out from the crowd?
                  Wanna bet that a large portion gets donated?

                  And it's mighty big of you to say it's nice if he happens to donate masks but that's no big deal. I realize that you know next to nothing about businesses but it is a very expensive endeavor to retool factories to produce something new -- especially when the demand won't likely be long term. And then to have to go back and refit for producing pillows and sheets when the crisis abates.

                  Moreover, the fact is that he has been singled out by the left for scorn and mockery for his efforts unlike all the others who are trying to help. From folks who are doing nothing themselves. That's what got, as you say, a bee in my bonnet.

                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Secondly, American law requires companies to maximize profits.
                  And this is exactly why people point and laugh at you when you claim to know so much about the U.S. (which you've admitted you have learned from Hollyweird TV shows and movies ).

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    And this is exactly why people point and laugh at you when you claim to know so much about the U.S.
                    No, they do that because they're dumber than a box of hammers, are frightened of anyone more intelligent than them, and are less moral than a 4 year old Nazi with a grudge. And they almost always do it when I'm repeating something I heard an American person say. It's become an ongoing joke for me to repeat something from an American only to have the slimiest Twebbers fall over themselves saying that statement proves I know nothing about America.

                    In this instance I was quoting an American political commentator from last week who was complaining about companies maximizing profit. It appears he was factually mistaken, and US law is more complex than that. Google tells me this is something many Americans are mistaken about and that it is a common misconception. So an American was wrong. But when I repeat what they say, if it's wrong, it proves I'm an ignorant foreigner? It's quite amusing.

                    (which you've admitted you have learned from Hollyweird TV shows and movies ).
                    Speaking of less moral, I've told you off many times before about lying. If you saw the post where I outlined my many and various sources of knowledge about the US and which mentioned TV and movies, you're aware that my knowledge doesn't at all solely come from TV and movies. As it didn't in this instance, unsurprisingly. So don't lie by pretending it does.
                    Last edited by Starlight; 04-04-2020, 06:19 AM.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      No, they do that because they're dumber than a box of hammers, are frightened of anyone more intelligent than them, and are less moral than a 4 year old Nazi with a grudge. And they almost always do it when I'm repeating something I heard an American person say. It's become an ongoing joke for me to repeat something from an American only to have the slimiest Twebbers fall over themselves saying that statement proves I know nothing about America.

                      In this instance I was quoting an American political commentator from last week who was complaining about companies maximizing profit. It appears he was factually mistaken, and US law is more complex than that. Google tells me this is something many Americans are mistaken about and that it is a common misconception. So an American was wrong. But when I repeat what they say, if it's wrong, it proves I'm an ignorant foreigner? It's quite amusing.

                      Speaking of less moral, I've told you off many times before about lying. If you saw the post where I outlined my many and various sources of knowledge about the US and which mentioned TV and movies, you're aware that my knowledge doesn't at all solely come from TV and movies. As it didn't in this instance, unsurprisingly. So don't lie by pretending it does.
                      Corporate law places an obligation on directors and executives to act in the best interest of the corporation and their shareholders. Breaching that obligation could even result in criminal charges so it’s not something to be taken lightly however ‘best interests’ isn’t just profits but could also be anything beneficial to the overall corporate profile.

                      Interestingly, if a CEO refused to take advantage of a situation to maximise profits in order to only benefit his own family and friends that would clearly be a breach of their fiduciary duties. If it only benefited their state or community then that may arguably be a breach but not if it was for the benefit of everyone. The goodwill that’s gained through a ‘public good’ must be perceived as somewhat comparable to the amount of profit sacrificed to determine if they were acting in the corporations best interests.

                      The significance is that should an action be deemed a breach, the CEO may be personally liable for the loss incurred. That should be cause for concern since goodwill isn’t quantifiable. It’s unlikely anyone would take that risk when they could get permission from the BOD or call an EGM.

                      It could very well be that shareholders voted to not take advantage of the shortage and keep the price and distribution the same. I doubt the CEO would act alone here.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        No, they do that because they're dumber than a box of hammers, are frightened of anyone more intelligent than them, and are less moral than a 4 year old Nazi with a grudge. And they almost always do it when I'm repeating something I heard an American person say. It's become an ongoing joke for me to repeat something from an American only to have the slimiest Twebbers fall over themselves saying that statement proves I know nothing about America.
                        This is where the line from Hamlet about overreacting ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks") springs to mind.

                        Well Mr. "more intelligent than them" you made the asinine claim that "American law requires companies to maximize profits," got humiliated when you were rightfully ridiculed for making such a stupid assertion and started sputtering and spurting in rage

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        In this instance I was quoting an American political commentator from last week who was complaining about companies maximizing profit.
                        Suuuure you did smiley snicker.gif

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        It appears he was factually mistaken, and US law is more complex than that.
                        Far, far more likely is that you didn't understand him correctly. I doubt there was anyone who was that ignorant. Well, aside from yourself that is.

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Google tells me this is something many Americans are mistaken about and that it is a common misconception.
                        Funny that you didn't link to this claim that "many Americans" think that "American law requires companies to maximize profits."

                        In fact I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything like that and I've heard many people say a lot of stupid things about how they think businesses are run. Generally, it's stuff that reveals that they don't understand that businesses are in the business of making a profit and not performing this or that "civic duty." But absolutely nobody said they thought that "American law requires companies to maximize profits."

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        So an American was wrong.
                        Suuuure they did

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        But when I repeat what they say, if it's wrong, it proves I'm an ignorant foreigner?
                        You are what you are.

                        Maybe you should put your bruised ego aside and put your big boy pants on for a change and just own up to what everyone already can plainly see -- that you are woefully ignorant about America. Continuing to pretend otherwise while spouting such utter nonsense makes it impossible for anyone to take you seriously.

                        I mean if I claimed that New Zealand law requires everyone to own a sheep you would be well within in your rights to laugh and call me grossly ignorant. And if I got overly defensive and started arrogantly declaring how much smarter I am than you, then I would only be going from bad to worse.

                        So do yourself a favor and grow up and admit that you don't know all that much about America.

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        It's quite amusing.
                        Indeed, but absolutely nobody is laughing with you.

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Speaking of less moral, I've told you off many times before about lying. If you saw the post where I outlined my many and various sources of knowledge about the US and which mentioned TV and movies, you're aware that my knowledge doesn't at all solely come from TV and movies.
                        Well, you did say that aside from getting your information from Hollyweird depictions, you also know people who live here and have visited here.

                        I'd say that a whole lot of people know someone who lives in another country or visited there. But very few of them are so full of themselves that they think that makes them some kind of expert about it.

                        I've been in 19 countries (not including the U.S.) and in some of them several times (Canada, Bahamas, Jamaica and all of Central America). And in most of them I have friends living there and know other people who have visited them, but I'm not such a fool to arrogantly pretend that I'm some sort of expert on them as a result. But for whatever reason you feel a need to act like you do. And that folly results in your making declarations like "American law requires companies to maximize profits."

                        Grow up star.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          No, they do that because they're dumber than a box of hammers, are frightened of anyone more intelligent than them, and are less moral than a 4 year old Nazi with a grudge. And they almost always do it when I'm repeating something I heard an American person say. It's become an ongoing joke for me to repeat something from an American only to have the slimiest Twebbers fall over themselves saying that statement proves I know nothing about America.

                          In this instance I was quoting an American political commentator from last week who was complaining about companies maximizing profit. It appears he was factually mistaken, and US law is more complex than that. Google tells me this is something many Americans are mistaken about and that it is a common misconception. So an American was wrong. But when I repeat what they say, if it's wrong, it proves I'm an ignorant foreigner? It's quite amusing.

                          Speaking of less moral, I've told you off many times before about lying. If you saw the post where I outlined my many and various sources of knowledge about the US and which mentioned TV and movies, you're aware that my knowledge doesn't at all solely come from TV and movies. As it didn't in this instance, unsurprisingly. So don't lie by pretending it does.
                          Moderated By: ke7ejx

                          You cannot make unsubstantiated claims of lying and you know that.

                          ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                          Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                          I am Punkinhead.

                          "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

                          ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            Okay, it has been discussed.

                            But is there anything we can bring in about morality (Christian or non Christian moral systems). I get the distinct impression that the exchange had more to do with political stands, rather than any moral principles which can be applied.
                            Let me put it this way: I do not believe it would be Biblical to starve my children in order to give food to someone in need.

                            If we are selling medical supplies out of our surplus then that's fine, but if we are depleting our stock and leaving ourselves dangerously unprepared then that's a problem.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              No, they do that because they're dumber than a box of hammers, are frightened of anyone more intelligent than them, and are less moral than a 4 year old Nazi with a grudge. And they almost always do it when I'm repeating something I heard an American person say. It's become an ongoing joke for me to repeat something from an American only to have the slimiest Twebbers fall over themselves saying that statement proves I know nothing about America.
                              For someone who keeps saying we fear him beause he more intelligent then we are you seem to say a lot of dumb things like the statement below.

                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Secondly, American law requires companies to maximize profits.
                              In this instance I was quoting an American political commentator from last week who was complaining about companies maximizing profit. It appears he was factually mistaken, and US law is more complex than that. Google tells me this is something many Americans are mistaken about and that it is a common misconception. So an American was wrong. But when I repeat what they say, if it's wrong, it proves I'm an ignorant foreigner? It's quite amusing.
                              What is amusing is you think this helps your case to prove you are an expert of anything American Starlight and more intelligent then others here. A "good" Scholar would not have foolishly repeated this nonsense that American law requires companies to maximize profits. without checking the sources of the commentator, if he gave any, or fact checked him if he didn't. So where is the cite for the Law this American Commentator mentioned. oh and for that matter where is your cite that most Americans believe it, Since you are a "great unbiased intellectual" scholar I'm sure you have them all. If you don't have them then be a Big Boy and admit you are wrong and are not the expert you pretend to be of America, her politics, history and law. A true unbiased Intellectual would be able to admit when he is wrong. an ignorant person will continue to pretend to be an expert of what he is not an expert of.
                              Last edited by RumTumTugger; 04-04-2020, 01:32 PM.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                              6 responses
                              45 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                              42 responses
                              230 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                              24 responses
                              104 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Ronson
                              by Ronson
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                              32 responses
                              176 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                              73 responses
                              288 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                              Working...
                              X