Immutability of God.

[Marta]

I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.

are we starting from this post or your recent end post? By sola Scriptura Protestants mean that Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source for all doctrine and practice (faith and morals). Sola Scriptura implies several things. First, the Bible is a direct revelation from God. As such, it has divine authority. For what the Bible says, God says.

[37818]

are we starting from this post or your recent end post? . . .

There was the intent of the OP. But it was moved from the Apologetics 301 to here in Unorthodox Theology.

So their is the topic of the OP and their are sub topics which come up in the discussion. My unstated intent was and is to argue a necessity of the Trinity. Any theology without the three entities/Persons who are the One God would not even be God.

By sola Scriptura Protestants mean that Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source for all doctrine and practice (faith and morals). Sola Scriptura implies several things. First, the Bible is a direct revelation from God. As such, it has divine authority. For what the Bible says, God says.

Ok. And unless sola scriptura is true then you have other sources for the word of God saying what that faith and practice must be.

[Marta]

[QUOTE]

There was the intent of the OP. But it was moved from the Apologetics 301 to here in Unorthodox Theology.

So their is the topic of the OP and their are sub topics which come up in the discussion. My unstated intent was and is to argue a necessity of the Trinity. Any theology without the three entities/Persons who are the One God would not even be God.

John 8:17

The original law: Laws of Landmark and Testimony

Ok. And unless sola scriptura is true then you have other sources for the word of God saying what that faith and practice must be.

[37818]

So I can understand this, you're saying that there is a necessity of the Trinity but yet, without the study of religious faith, practice, and experience : the study of God and God's relation to the world the three entities/persons would not be God. I hope I wrote this right.

<snip>

I am not sure that I understand what you meant in that last part of what you wrote in the above..

God being necessarily being a Trinity, this would be true regardless whether one studied the written word of God (NT) from which traditional discovery of the Trinity is based.

[Marta]

I am not sure that I understand what you meant in that last part of what you wrote in the above..

God being necessarily being a Trinity, this would be true regardless whether one studied the written word of God (NT) from which traditional discovery of the Trinity is based.

So I can understand this, you're saying and not I'm saying.

[Marta]

I am not sure that I understand what you meant in that last part of what you wrote in the above..

God being necessarily being a Trinity, this would be true regardless whether one studied the written word of God (NT) from which traditional discovery of the Trinity is based.

Regarding the passage from out of the New Testament - to document: Regarding two or three witness, Deuteronomy 19:15

[37818]

So I can understand this, you're saying and not I'm saying.

Yes, I am making the argument that the Trinity with the Godhead is true whether we understand it from the written witness of the NT or not. And can be shown necessary by reason of creation itself being a mutable [a change] in being a finite and temporal act from God, God being immutable, eternal and infinite.

[Marta]

Yes, I am making the argument that the Trinity with the Godhead is true whether we understand it from the written witness of the NT or not. And can be shown necessary by reason of creation itself being a mutable [a change] in being a finite and temporal act from God, God being immutable, eternal and infinite.

What do you mean by saying, "The Trinity with I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly."


When speaking of two or three witness to testify to the truth we have John the Baptist (John 1:27,)Abraham (John 8:56) and Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17

[37818]

What do you mean by saying, "The Trinity with I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly."


When speaking of two or three witness to testify to the truth we have John the Baptist (John 1:27,)Abraham (John 8:56) and Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17

Trinity is the name of the explanation of the Godhead being God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit that they are the One YHWH.

The Father is the Source where the Son is that very Light of that Source (True God, John 17:3; True Light John 1:9; Hebrews 1:3; John 17:5; Isaiah 42:8).

John 1:3,
. . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .

To claim that God does anything apart from the Son is to deny the Trinity. All that the Son does is because of the Father (John 5:18-23). You cannot have the acts of God without the Son (John 1:3). To deny one is to deny the other - they are YHWH.

[Marta]

Trinity is the name of the explanation of the Godhead being God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit that they are the One YHWH.

The Father is the Source where the Son is that very Light of that Source (True God, John 17:3; True Light John 1:9; Hebrews 1:3; John 17:5; Isaiah 42:8).

John 1:3,
. . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .

To claim that God does anything apart from the Son is to deny the Trinity. All that the Son does is because of the Father (John 5:18-23). You cannot have the acts of God without the Son (John 1:3). To deny one is to deny the other - they are YHWH.

OK, the Trinity is the name of the explanation of the Godhead. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to understand this as the Trinity or the Godhead, instead of, the Trinity with the Godhead?

the Godhead being God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit that they are the One YHWH - Right, the Trinity or the Godhead.

[Marta]

I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.

Aquinas clearly distinguished between eternity and temporality. He said that eternity exists with no beginning, no succession, and no end while temporality has a beginning, succession, and an end.

The argument here is within this statement: God created the temporal world; the Incarnation involved God joining human flesh in the temporal world.

Using scripture to point this fact out:

"Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Haran. When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. He had a dream in which he saw a stairway/ladder resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it."


Statement: In this vision Jacob sees something similar to a ladder or a stairway (Hebrew word: sullam) which signifies a connection between God and man

[Marta]

Reference: The Trinity, Simultaneity, Temporality, and Riemannian Geometry

[37818]

Your post consists of multiple arguments. Which is fine. But Iam going to look at the first.

Aquinas clearly distinguished between eternity and temporality. He said that eternity exists with no beginning, no succession, and no end while temporality has a beginning, succession, and an end.

<snip>

Eternity can have a temporal component. The Son of God from eternity was not human and now into eternity is human. Human is temporal. The Son of God is now an immortal human who as a human has a beginning. Being both eternal from the past now temporal being human too.

So either there was an end to full immutability or what ended was also always temporal in nature too. Being always immutable being God and was always temporal in nature being with God.

In any case the Logos was both "with" and "was" God and still is. What changed was how the Logos was "with" God two times. Immortal to mortal back to immortal again permanently.

Keeping in mind, never ceasing being God too.

The Logos was made flesh (John 1:14). He was the only one to do it (John 1:3). And that was a change,

[Marta]

Your post consists of multiple arguments. Which is fine. But Iam going to look at the first.

Eternity can have a temporal component. The Son of God from eternity was not human and now into eternity is human. Human is temporal. The Son of God is now an immortal human who as a human has a beginning. Being both eternal from the past now temporal being human too.

So either there was an end to full immutability or what ended was also always temporal in nature too. Being always immutable being God and was always temporal in nature being with God.

In any case the Logos was both "with" and "was" God and still is. What changed was how the Logos was "with" God two times. Immortal to mortal back to immortal again permanently.

Keeping in mind, never ceasing being God too.

The Logos was made flesh (John 1:14). He was the only one to do it (John 1:3). And that was a change,

As the law is eternal and was given at Mount Horeb. Divine law

"Divine law is any law that comes directly from the "will of God", in contrast to man-made law. Unlike natural law, which is independent of human beings, divine laws are totally dependent on human narrators and closely related to different cultures; they may change in human perception in time through new revelation, however, divine laws are eternal and constant, not subject to change. Divine laws are contained in sacred religious texts such as the Torah, the Holy Bible, and Quran."

"In Thomas Aquinas's Treatise on Law, divine law comes only from revelation or scripture, hence biblical law, and is necessary for human salvation. According to Aquinas, divine law must not be confused with natural law. Divine law is mainly and mostly natural law, but it can also be positive law."

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

[37818]

God giving His written Law to man was a temporal and finite act of God. From God who is infinite and immutable. And was done by way of His eternal Son and His holy messengers.

At issue. God always was and is. Creation being a unique finite temporal act from God constitutes a change. God did not change, so there has to also always been a finite and temporal Cause with God. We know Him to be the Son (John 1:1-3).