Ways to end the Covid pandemic

[NorrinRadd]

For example, it is widely believed that smallpox was eradicated, so when a suspiciously similar disease with identical symptoms suddenly appears, doctors can't very well call it something that was supposedly "eradicated" (well, they could, but that would be career suicide), so instead they give it a new name. In this case, "monkeypox".

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...x-on-the-rise/

Same thing with polio. Any new cases with polio-like symptoms are diagnosed as "acute flaccid myelitis". Which is to say that despite the fact that a disease has the exact same symptoms as polio, doctors are discouraged from referring to it as something that was supposedly "eradicated".

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/acute-f...ise-questions/

So perhaps that's a solution here, develop a vaccine for the Wuhan flu, declare it "eradicated" so life can go back to normal, and then when new cases appear, give it a new name.

Oh, ok, kind of like the way we "win" wars.

[Starlight]

For example, it is widely believed that smallpox was eradicated, so when a suspiciously similar disease with identical symptoms suddenly appears, doctors can't very well call it something that was supposedly "eradicated" (well, they could, but that would be career suicide), so instead they give it a new name. In this case, "monkeypox".

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...x-on-the-rise/

Same thing with polio. Any new cases with polio-like symptoms are diagnosed as "acute flaccid myelitis". Which is to say that despite the fact that a disease has the exact same symptoms as polio, doctors are discouraged from referring to it as something that was supposedly "eradicated".

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/acute-f...ise-questions/

So perhaps that's a solution here, develop a vaccine for the Wuhan flu, declare it "eradicated" so life can go back to normal, and then when new cases appear, give it a new name.

1. It's trivially easy these days to genetically sequence an infection and compare the sequence to the on-file sequence for another disease. If they were the same, it would be obvious.

2. It's common for there to be different species that have similarities due to evolving from a common source. e.g. horses, donkeys, and zebras. This is likewise common amongst viruses and bacteria, especially if they have evolved to each infect different hosts. e.g. camelpox, cowpox, monkeypox, raccoonpox, skunkpox, volepox, smallpox etc.

With regard to #2 It was the observation that farmers who had been exposed to cows with cowpox (which has minimal effect on humans) subsequently didn't seem to get smallpox (lethally serious in humans) due to the antibodies they'd developed to fight off cowpox, that led to the development of a cowpox based vaccine to wipe out smallpox.

For this reason, my own covid joke version of Trump's 'have you tried injecting disinfectant?' is 'have you tried hugging cows?' as Bovine Coronavirus is a cow-hosted relative of Covid and its not impossible that it might convey some level of covid immunity to humans in a similar way to cowpox exposure preventing smallpox.

This is not the first time on these forums though that I've seen an "all diseases are basically the same disease" type argument from MM though...

[MaxVel]

To summarise so far: Ways to end this coronavirus pandemic. I've ranked them in what I think is their order of probability, with (1) being the most likely to happen.


(1a)'Herd immunity'

(1b) Virus peters out naturally

-these two I think are about equally likely, and are probably somewhat related.

-it's possible / likely (?) that the virus will mutate into less dangerous forms and thus cease to be a problem. (I think this is what Shunya thinks will happen (?)


**My thoughts: I think this by far the most likely outcome in the long term. Developing a vaccine seems hopeful rather than probable (problem of if exposure (via infection or vaccine) grants any significant long term immunity)



(2) Diagnose and cure

We develop ways to make early identification of infected people, along with an effective way to treat them so that they get better, and don't infect others. Presumably this would involve advances in testing, and also in antibody tests, plus some form of anti-viral drug(s). If we could get this going across the world... ...problem solved.


Antibody treatment

Treating infected people with antibodies sourced from others who have already been infected.


** There is some hope that we can find more effective ways to treat patients. The problem with this being a solution is the difficulty in providing this level of treatment to people all over the world at a rate that eradicates the infection.



(3) Vaccination

** I'm currently not too hopeful that this will solve the pandemic.
(a) It's unknown whether we can develop a vaccine at all for this kind of virus (i.e. it may not even be possible, no matter how much we try);
(b) Any vaccine is a long way off, time-wise. I think the virus will have infected so many people (with the small exception of perhaps a few places like New Zealand) that most people will have effectively been 'vaccinated' already by exposure.
(c) We would have to manufacture and deliver the vaccine to most of the world's population. I have real doubts about the practicality of that, both in terms of logistics, and in terms of acceptance and uptake.


(4) Elimination


**I doubt this is going to be successful, as it relies on 'waiting out' the pandemic in isolation until either:

(a) an effective vaccine is found. Since I am dubious about the possibility of us developing an effective vaccine, waiting in isolation for one is futile. Eventually there will have to be a managed exposure of the quarantined population to the virus, so that people can develop herd immunity.

or

(b) the virus mutates and becomes less dangerous (quite possible). Not sure what happens then to a population that has had no exposure to either form of the virus - I guess they get exposed to the mutated form and it's no problem, or it dies out because it's mutation renders it less infectious



Other thoughts: Is the 'Sweden model' the best approach? I.e. managing a controlled exposure to the virus, thus minimising casualties while also developing herd immunity. Interesting piece from the Lancet by a top Swedish epidemiologist.

He argues:

Sweden mortality rate OK (lower than UK)

hard lockdown not very effective in protecting elderly in rest homes (most vulnerable group) ; doesn't really affect mortality rates

PCR testing and some straightforward assumptions indicate that, as of April 29, 2020, more than half a million people in Stockholm county, Sweden, which is about 20–25% of the population, have been infected (Hansson D, Swedish Public Health Agency, personal communication). 98–99% of these people are probably unaware or uncertain of having had the infection; they either had symptoms that were severe, but not severe enough for them to go to a hospital and get tested, or no symptoms at all. Serology testing is now supporting these assumptions.

That implies something similar for most other countries, I suppose, and fits with what we know about people being infected but asymptomatic. The implication is that it's very difficult to isolate infected people without an effective test, using it on almost everyone, and very quick and effective contact tracing and isolation. The last is the most difficult given the speed with which people can be infected and then themselves become infectious.

These facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown might delay severe cases for a while, but once restrictions are eased, cases will reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.

In summary, COVID-19 is a disease that is highly infectious and spreads rapidly through society. It is often quite symptomless and might pass unnoticed, but it also causes severe disease, and even death, in a proportion of the population, and our most important task is not to stop spread, which is all but futile, but to concentrate on giving the unfortunate victims optimal care.

I think he is correct: it can't be stopped from spreading to pretty much everyone (it possibly already has in many countries). Given that, strict lockdowns are ineffective and unhelpful. Lower level measures like social distancing and so on may be helpful in slowing the rate so as to manage resources for best treatment of those who need it.


Our goal should be to optimise treatment for those who need it, until we have herd immunity / virus mutation into less lethal form. Some social controls to 'flatten the curve' of those who are most vulnerable so as to husband treatment resources might be advisable in some countries, depending on their demographics, health systems and so on, but every country is going to be somewhat different.

[Mountain Man]

This is not the first time on these forums though that I've seen an "all diseases are basically the same disease" type argument from MM though...

Which is not what I said, but thanks for playing.

[shunyadragon]

For example, it is widely believed that smallpox was eradicated, so when a suspiciously similar disease with identical symptoms suddenly appears, doctors can't very well call it something that was supposedly "eradicated" (well, they could, but that would be career suicide), so instead they give it a new name. In this case, "monkeypox".

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...x-on-the-rise/

Same thing with polio. Any new cases with polio-like symptoms are diagnosed as "acute flaccid myelitis". Which is to say that despite the fact that a disease has the exact same symptoms as polio, doctors are discouraged from referring to it as something that was supposedly "eradicated".

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/acute-f...ise-questions/

So perhaps that's a solution here, develop a vaccine for the Wuhan flu, declare it "eradicated" so life can go back to normal, and then when new cases appear, give it a new name.

Vaccines have never been effective for eradicating zoonotic viruses. Any vaccine developed now could do little except to monotor the corona viruses for mutations and develop a vaccine for the next go round just as we do for flus. These viruses come and go and determine the infection curve. We can reduce the cases and fatalities by vaccines, and isolation methods, but we cannot eradicate nor defeat the zoonotic viruses.

[Mountain Man]

...we cannot eradicate nor defeat the zoonotic viruses.

That was my point.

[YHWH RULES]

#1: National moratorium, enforced by law, lifting all rent and mortgage obligations (for both tenants and landlords), including utilities (electric, water, gas..etc).

#2: Unemployment assistance for all who qualify and a BUI/Basic Universal Income, of $1200 monthly for everyone who earns less than half a million yearly. If someone who earns more than half a million requests the assistance, for whatever reason, they get it, no questions asked. Anyone with an address in the US, who earns under the above stated amount is eligible for the income, regardless of their immigration status. Illegal immigrants are humans too and need to eat. If they are excluded from receiving this basic monetary assistance, they can become a public health and safety hazard (Bubba may cringe at the idea of helping those brown skinned "hispanic-illegals", in the middle of a mass pandemic, but perhaps he should study his Bible more carefully, because YAHWEH doesn't condone starving people to death due to their immigration status or because they look different than Bubba.).

Those who are homeless and without an address or a bank account, should also receive the assistance and receive adequate, safe housing. That could be done by the government working with contractors, to build emergency housing for the homeless and these individuals could be given food and whatever else they need to survive. Other social services could be provided as well, to help them overcome their personal challenges, whatever that might be. This is something that should've been done a long time ago. There is no reason for the wealthiest, most powerful empire in human history, to have so many homeless people, when there so much vacant housing, land and resources. We have the means to feed, house and train (vocational/job training), all of the homeless. We could also provided them with the medical attention they need, if they need it. Yes we can, believe it or not, if we were willing. It's a matter of will, not capacity.

#3: The president uses his executive powers to nationalize factories and begin producing millions of test kits, medicine (hydroxychloroquine, zpak, zinc, IV bags filled with high dose vitamin C and any other drug, vitamin..etc proven effective in the field/battlefield, to fight this virus), medical equipment (masks, ventilators, whatever else we need). Our president should not be relying on the supposed philanthropic generosity, estimated production capacity of the profit pursuing private sector. He should exercise, boldly and assertively wield his constitutional, executive powers in the middle of this national crises to GET IT DONE, whatever that might be. That includes having the top experts in the country, being part of his team, to help plan and effectively execute the government's orders. If our congress refuses to lock in step with the president, the president should use his so called "bully pulpit" to force politicians in congress to "see things differently" . The president has great influence over the American people during a crises, especially when the people recognize the president's efforts as being in their best interest.


#4 Nationally enforced health laws, requiring everyone to wear a mask (cover their mouths and noses with practically anything; it doesn't have to be an actual surgical mask, it can be a cloth, scarf, bandana, t-shirt, banana peels, anything for heaven's sake!), when in public. Social distancing should be taken seriously, and certain businesses unfortunately, that are not vital to our national infrastructure and survival, must remain closed, especially if they involve people congregating in buildings and closed, confined areas. This will greatly reduce the rate of infection and give our government and the private sector, enough time to produce and distribute the test kits, the medications/treatments, the vaccines, required to effectively handle and overcome this virus. Allowing us to open up the economy ASAP and allow us all to go back to living our lives.

Those who don't wear a mask in public, should be called out and told to wear a mask. If they refuse to wear a mask in public, they're miscreants / criminals, who are committing an act of aggression towards their fellow human beings. They're placing themselves at risk of contracting the virus and others as well. They may not care about strangers, but they might infect their loved ones, their parents and grandparents. They might infect people they care about, and that can lead to a serious infection and complications, even death. No one who lives in society, enjoying the many benefits of living in a community, in a modern civilization, with all of its infrastructure and resources, has the right to do whatever they freaking want. They must abide by the safety measures created and enforced to protect the public and avoid hospitals from being overwhelmed with COVID patients. To do otherwise is to become a public health hazard, and such people should be punished, especially if they are proven to intentionally and continually defy and thumb their noses at these community measures to eradicate the virus. In the middle of a mass pandemic, with the potential to kill millions of Americans, you and I, don't have the right, to place other people in danger of getting infected with this deadly virus.

Those knucklehead miscreants, who just "don't get it", should receive assistance from law enforcement on "getting it". They should be incarcerated, either in jail or in a concentration camp (oh yes, that's right. CONCENTRATION CAMP for idiots), for those who have chosen to become public health hazards, a danger to their communities. And if the governors need to deploy the national guard, and marshal law has to be used, with boots on the ground to handle Bubba (all of the self styled, combat rifle carrying, "patriot rebels" and country bumpkins who flip their fingers at their nation's effort to control and stop the pandemic), then so be it. Bubba is going to get a rude awakening from the US military, when he/she is forced to wear a mask in public, whether they like it or not. If they refuse, they go to camp, where they will be forced to live with other "patriot rebels" / bubbas, and they will wear a mask in the camp. The US government will feed and house these knuckleheads/imbeciles, until the pandemic is under control. If they choose to get violent, using lethal force, these miscreant, criminal country folk, will be quickly dispatched, compliments of the US Army and Marines. How does that sound, Bubba? Put your mask on in public. It's that simple.

#5 We should work in cooperation with other nations, who are also fighting this virus, in order to best learn how to beat this disease.

Read all of the above, that's the way to get through this pandemic, without losing millions of American lives. We don't have to sacrifice grandma and grandpa, to save wall street or the economy. We don't have to sacrifice anyone on the altar of this disease, provided we do what is required as a nation, as a society / modern civilization. Those that resist our nation's efforts to beat this pandemic, and spare millions of lives, should be punished and even killed, if they choose to resort to violence.

[NorrinRadd]

#1: National moratorium, enforced by law, lifting all rent and mortgage obligations (for both tenants and landlords), including utilities (electric, water, gas..etc).

#2: Unemployment assistance for all who qualify and a BUI/Basic Universal Income, of $1200 monthly for everyone who earns less than half a million yearly. If someone who earns more than half a million requests the assistance, for whatever reason, they get it, no questions asked. Anyone with an address in the US, who earns under the above stated amount is eligible for the income, regardless of their immigration status. Illegal immigrants are humans too and need to eat. If they are excluded from receiving this basic monetary assistance, they can become a public health and safety hazard (Bubba may cringe at the idea of helping those brown skinned "hispanic-illegals", in the middle of a mass pandemic, but perhaps he should study his Bible more carefully, because YAHWEH doesn't condone starving people to death due to their immigration status or because they look different than Bubba.).

Those who are homeless and without an address or a bank account, should also receive the assistance and receive adequate, safe housing. That could be done by the government working with contractors, to build emergency housing for the homeless and these individuals could be given food and whatever else they need to survive. Other social services could be provided as well, to help them overcome their personal challenges, whatever that might be. This is something that should've been done a long time ago. There is no reason for the wealthiest, most powerful empire in human history, to have so many homeless people, when there so much vacant housing, land and resources. We have the means to feed, house and train (vocational/job training), all of the homeless. We could also provided them with the medical attention they need, if they need it. Yes we can, believe it or not, if we were willing. It's a matter of will, not capacity.

#3: The president uses his executive powers to nationalize factories and begin producing millions of test kits, medicine (hydroxychloroquine, zpak, zinc, IV bags filled with high dose vitamin C and any other drug, vitamin..etc proven effective in the field/battlefield, to fight this virus), medical equipment (masks, ventilators, whatever else we need). Our president should not be relying on the supposed philanthropic generosity, estimated production capacity of the profit pursuing private sector. He should exercise, boldly and assertively wield his constitutional, executive powers in the middle of this national crises to GET IT DONE, whatever that might be. That includes having the top experts in the country, being part of his team, to help plan and effectively execute the government's orders. If our congress refuses to lock in step with the president, the president should use his so called "bully pulpit" to force politicians in congress to "see things differently" . The president has great influence over the American people during a crises, especially when the people recognize the president's efforts as being in their best interest.


#4 Nationally enforced health laws, requiring everyone to wear a mask (cover their mouths and noses with practically anything; it doesn't have to be an actual surgical mask, it can be a cloth, scarf, bandana, t-shirt, banana peels, anything for heaven's sake!), when in public. Social distancing should be taken seriously, and certain businesses unfortunately, that are not vital to our national infrastructure and survival, must remain closed, especially if they involve people congregating in buildings and closed, confined areas. This will greatly reduce the rate of infection and give our government and the private sector, enough time to produce and distribute the test kits, the medications/treatments, the vaccines, required to effectively handle and overcome this virus. Allowing us to open up the economy ASAP and allow us all to go back to living our lives.

Those who don't wear a mask in public, should be called out and told to wear a mask. If they refuse to wear a mask in public, they're miscreants / criminals, who are committing an act of aggression towards their fellow human beings. They're placing themselves at risk of contracting the virus and others as well. They may not care about strangers, but they might infect their loved ones, their parents and grandparents. They might infect people they care about, and that can lead to a serious infection and complications, even death. No one who lives in society, enjoying the many benefits of living in a community, in a modern civilization, with all of its infrastructure and resources, has the right to do whatever they freaking want. They must abide by the safety measures created and enforced to protect the public and avoid hospitals from being overwhelmed with COVID patients. To do otherwise is to become a public health hazard, and such people should be punished, especially if they are proven to intentionally and continually defy and thumb their noses at these community measures to eradicate the virus. In the middle of a mass pandemic, with the potential to kill millions of Americans, you and I, don't have the right, to place other people in danger of getting infected with this deadly virus.

Those knucklehead miscreants, who just "don't get it", should receive assistance from law enforcement on "getting it". They should be incarcerated, either in jail or in a concentration camp (oh yes, that's right. CONCENTRATION CAMP for idiots), for those who have chosen to become public health hazards, a danger to their communities. And if the governors need to deploy the national guard, and marshal law has to be used, with boots on the ground to handle Bubba (all of the self styled, combat rifle carrying, "patriot rebels" and country bumpkins who flip their fingers at their nation's effort to control and stop the pandemic), then so be it. Bubba is going to get a rude awakening from the US military, when he/she is forced to wear a mask in public, whether they like it or not. If they refuse, they go to camp, where they will be forced to live with other "patriot rebels" / bubbas, and they will wear a mask in the camp. The US government will feed and house these knuckleheads/imbeciles, until the pandemic is under control. If they choose to get violent, using lethal force, these miscreant, criminal country folk, will be quickly dispatched, compliments of the US Army and Marines. How does that sound, Bubba? Put your mask on in public. It's that simple.

#5 We should work in cooperation with other nations, who are also fighting this virus, in order to best learn how to beat this disease.

Read all of the above, that's the way to get through this pandemic, without losing millions of American lives. We don't have to sacrifice grandma and grandpa, to save wall street or the economy. We don't have to sacrifice anyone on the altar of this disease, provided we do what is required as a nation, as a society / modern civilization. Those that resist our nation's efforts to beat this pandemic, and spare millions of lives, should be punished and even killed, if they choose to resort to violence.

Wow! An actual, real live totalitarian lunatic! People like you are why we have and need the Second Amendment.

[seanD]

Wow! An actual, real live totalitarian lunatic! People like you are why we have and need the Second Amendment.

It's scary what fear does to folks. What really amazes me is someone who professes to believe in a supernatural power and afterlife, so terrified of dying. It makes you really question their faith in those things.

[Mountain Man]

[liberal totalitarian insanity]

Who's going to pay for it?

[rogue06]

#1: National moratorium, enforced by law, lifting all rent and mortgage obligations (for both tenants and landlords), including utilities (electric, water, gas..etc).

#2: Unemployment assistance for all who qualify and a BUI/Basic Universal Income, of $1200 monthly for everyone who earns less than half a million yearly. If someone who earns more than half a million requests the assistance, for whatever reason, they get it, no questions asked. Anyone with an address in the US, who earns under the above stated amount is eligible for the income, regardless of their immigration status. Illegal immigrants are humans too and need to eat. If they are excluded from receiving this basic monetary assistance, they can become a public health and safety hazard (Bubba may cringe at the idea of helping those brown skinned "hispanic-illegals", in the middle of a mass pandemic, but perhaps he should study his Bible more carefully, because YAHWEH doesn't condone starving people to death due to their immigration status or because they look different than Bubba.).

Those who are homeless and without an address or a bank account, should also receive the assistance and receive adequate, safe housing. That could be done by the government working with contractors, to build emergency housing for the homeless and these individuals could be given food and whatever else they need to survive. Other social services could be provided as well, to help them overcome their personal challenges, whatever that might be. This is something that should've been done a long time ago. There is no reason for the wealthiest, most powerful empire in human history, to have so many homeless people, when there so much vacant housing, land and resources. We have the means to feed, house and train (vocational/job training), all of the homeless. We could also provided them with the medical attention they need, if they need it. Yes we can, believe it or not, if we were willing. It's a matter of will, not capacity.

#3: The president uses his executive powers to nationalize factories and begin producing millions of test kits, medicine (hydroxychloroquine, zpak, zinc, IV bags filled with high dose vitamin C and any other drug, vitamin..etc proven effective in the field/battlefield, to fight this virus), medical equipment (masks, ventilators, whatever else we need). Our president should not be relying on the supposed philanthropic generosity, estimated production capacity of the profit pursuing private sector. He should exercise, boldly and assertively wield his constitutional, executive powers in the middle of this national crises to GET IT DONE, whatever that might be. That includes having the top experts in the country, being part of his team, to help plan and effectively execute the government's orders. If our congress refuses to lock in step with the president, the president should use his so called "bully pulpit" to force politicians in congress to "see things differently" . The president has great influence over the American people during a crises, especially when the people recognize the president's efforts as being in their best interest.


#4 Nationally enforced health laws, requiring everyone to wear a mask (cover their mouths and noses with practically anything; it doesn't have to be an actual surgical mask, it can be a cloth, scarf, bandana, t-shirt, banana peels, anything for heaven's sake!), when in public. Social distancing should be taken seriously, and certain businesses unfortunately, that are not vital to our national infrastructure and survival, must remain closed, especially if they involve people congregating in buildings and closed, confined areas. This will greatly reduce the rate of infection and give our government and the private sector, enough time to produce and distribute the test kits, the medications/treatments, the vaccines, required to effectively handle and overcome this virus. Allowing us to open up the economy ASAP and allow us all to go back to living our lives.

Those who don't wear a mask in public, should be called out and told to wear a mask. If they refuse to wear a mask in public, they're miscreants / criminals, who are committing an act of aggression towards their fellow human beings. They're placing themselves at risk of contracting the virus and others as well. They may not care about strangers, but they might infect their loved ones, their parents and grandparents. They might infect people they care about, and that can lead to a serious infection and complications, even death. No one who lives in society, enjoying the many benefits of living in a community, in a modern civilization, with all of its infrastructure and resources, has the right to do whatever they freaking want. They must abide by the safety measures created and enforced to protect the public and avoid hospitals from being overwhelmed with COVID patients. To do otherwise is to become a public health hazard, and such people should be punished, especially if they are proven to intentionally and continually defy and thumb their noses at these community measures to eradicate the virus. In the middle of a mass pandemic, with the potential to kill millions of Americans, you and I, don't have the right, to place other people in danger of getting infected with this deadly virus.

Those knucklehead miscreants, who just "don't get it", should receive assistance from law enforcement on "getting it". They should be incarcerated, either in jail or in a concentration camp (oh yes, that's right. CONCENTRATION CAMP for idiots), for those who have chosen to become public health hazards, a danger to their communities. And if the governors need to deploy the national guard, and marshal law has to be used, with boots on the ground to handle Bubba (all of the self styled, combat rifle carrying, "patriot rebels" and country bumpkins who flip their fingers at their nation's effort to control and stop the pandemic), then so be it. Bubba is going to get a rude awakening from the US military, when he/she is forced to wear a mask in public, whether they like it or not. If they refuse, they go to camp, where they will be forced to live with other "patriot rebels" / bubbas, and they will wear a mask in the camp. The US government will feed and house these knuckleheads/imbeciles, until the pandemic is under control. If they choose to get violent, using lethal force, these miscreant, criminal country folk, will be quickly dispatched, compliments of the US Army and Marines. How does that sound, Bubba? Put your mask on in public. It's that simple.

#5 We should work in cooperation with other nations, who are also fighting this virus, in order to best learn how to beat this disease.

Read all of the above, that's the way to get through this pandemic, without losing millions of American lives. We don't have to sacrifice grandma and grandpa, to save wall street or the economy. We don't have to sacrifice anyone on the altar of this disease, provided we do what is required as a nation, as a society / modern civilization. Those that resist our nation's efforts to beat this pandemic, and spare millions of lives, should be punished and even killed, if they choose to resort to violence.

ing this was satire or a parody.

[Starlight]

ing this was satire or a parody.

You are particularly against #5 I take it?

[Starlight]

#1: National moratorium, enforced by law, lifting all rent and mortgage obligations (for both tenants and landlords)

Seems sensible, as 'pausing' rents and mortgages will significantly help small businesses. Might want to limit it to commercial premises for small-business only. (Assuming unemployed individuals are getting unemployment assistence, see below)

Rent & mortgage holidays is one thing my country didn't do which I think it probably should. Instead we went the route of the govt writing a check to businesses for them to pay their employees with in exchange for a promise not to lay off those employees over the shutdown period... that seems to have worked well and our unemployment rates went up by less than 1 percentage point despite a lengthy shutdown.

including utilities (electric, water, gas..etc).

This is slightly harder. You don't want to encouraging people to mine bitcoin by giving them infinite free electricity. And if this subsidy included businesses (e.g. massive factories using heaps of these) that would be weird.

But a limited subsidy of the above would possibly make sense.

#2: Unemployment assistance for all who qualify

Something that should self-evidently be already happening at all times, pandemic and otherwise. I was horrified to see an article a while back, where Florida was paying out on only 6% of new unemployment claims made since the pandemic started... I see it's gone up to 22% now.

a BUI/Basic Universal Income, of $1200 monthly for everyone who earns less than half a million yearly.

Very very very expensive. Unclear to me that even the current crisis warrants this.

Those who are homeless and without an address or a bank account, should also receive the assistance and receive adequate, safe housing.

The government has an obligation to basic human rights to ensure everyone has a safe home, period. This applies both during and not during pandemics. The US's failure to adequately address its homeless crisis is 3rd world and utterly shameful.

In my country there are programs to provide basic subsidized-rent housing to those who don't have homes. It's pretty simple.

#3: The president uses his executive powers to nationalize factories and begin producing millions of test kits, medicine (hydroxychloroquine, zpak, zinc, IV bags filled with high dose vitamin C and any other drug, vitamin..etc proven effective in the field/battlefield, to fight this virus), medical equipment (masks, ventilators, whatever else we need). Our president should not be relying on the supposed philanthropic generosity, estimated production capacity of the profit pursuing private sector. He should exercise, boldly and assertively wield his constitutional, executive powers in the middle of this national crises to GET IT DONE, whatever that might be.

Nationalizing things is getting into dodgy territory.

But the US President does have emergency powers he can use to direct existing private companies to produce specific things. Using those powers in a limited way in order to get things done would seem sensible.

#4 Nationally enforced health laws, requiring everyone to wear a mask

Perhaps. Some countries have gone this route. It's still a bit unclear how much masks help or what quality of mask is needed for it to be worthwhile.

Obviously any law needs enforcement. Possibly not with the level of punishment you go on to suggest.

#5 We should work in cooperation with other nations, who are also fighting this virus, in order to best learn how to beat this disease.

Ya'think?

[YHWH RULES]

Wow! An actual, real live totalitarian lunatic! People like you are why we have and need the Second Amendment.

The second amendment and waving your AR15 around isn't going to help you, much less justify your miscreant, criminal behavior. In the middle of a pandemic, you have to comply with your government's public safety measures, to do otherwise makes you a public health hazard and worthy of being fined or jailed. Wicked miscreants like you, feel entitled to defy such laws, but that's why we have law enforcement. To throw criminals like you in jail, where you belong. It's people like you that will be fighting the Messiah and His armies in the name of "democrazy and freekdom".

[YHWH RULES]

This is slightly harder. You don't want to encouraging people to mine bitcoin by giving them infinite free electricity. And if this subsidy included businesses (e.g. massive factories using heaps of these) that would be weird. But a limited subsidy of the above would possibly make sense.

I doubt people are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars in cryptocurrency mining hardware and turn their apartments and homes into bitcoin mines (some people probably will do that, and its an interesting point that should be considered). The idea is that people shouldn't be left in the dark due to inability to pay their utility bills. Certain provisions could be made to prevent people from abusing the system and drawing massive amounts of electricity from the grid to mine Bitcoin. The points I made are simply a general outline of the course of action our government can take to deal with the pandemic.

Something that should self-evidently be already happening at all times, pandemic and otherwise. I was horrified to see an article a while back, where Florida was paying out on only 6% of new unemployment claims made since the pandemic started... I see it's gone up to 22% now.

As a Floridian I'm not surprised. I currently live in NYC, but Florida is led by big money politics and a skewed, draconian social conservatism.

Very very very expensive. Unclear to me that even the current crisis warrants this.

Much more expensive not to do it. In the end, everyone will use that money to buy food and supplies, which does stimulate the economy. It's the large corporations and the rich that don't need a bailout, but the average joe, working class, definitely needs a way to survive the national crises, while the government, with its partners in the private sector, work to produce the tests, equipment, treatments, vaccines..etc, to get the country back on its feet, safely, without mass death. If we don't take the necessary measure of temporary social isolation and distancing, our broken health system will be overwhelmed with COVID patients and millions of Americans could possibly die. About 15% to 20% of everyone who gets infected with this virus, needs hospitalization, hence if we neglect to implement the necessary social safety measures, millions of American can die. In a country where about 40% of the population is over weight, if not obese, with millions of Americans suffering from heart disease, hypertension, diabetes..etc, just letting this virus run rampant would be an inconceivable catastrophe. A crime against humanity.

The government has an obligation to basic human rights to ensure everyone has a safe home, period. This applies both during and not during pandemics.

That's just a bunch of Ayn Rand, Ron Paul, Libertarian gobbledygook. A completely arbitrary, incomplete definition of government, that could just as well be replaced with a more complete socialist model of government; " a social apparatus to ensure the public's welfare/good, by centrally planning and organizing a community's human resources and its means of production". I prefer the latter of the two and believe it's the Biblical position. Government is not just a social institution or organization designed to protect private property and enforce contracts, but the means to organize, support and protect, human resources / labor / work / research and development / progress / science and technology..etc. It's the medium and organism, social apparatus, that organizes and facilitates human progress and a modern civilization. Karl Marx, took very ancient socioeconomic and Biblical concepts and created his own materialist, atheist version in response to 19th century, European capitalism. Karl Marx's materialist dialectic was heavily influenced by Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, who wasn't an atheist. God, theism, the Bible, is not contrary to genuine socialism.

However, none of the points I made are necessarily "socialist" or "communist", it's just common sense. A universal basic income in the middle of a mass pandemic, requiring the shutdown of much of the economy, to prevent millions of people from dying, is simply a way to mitigate the loss of income caused by the pandemic. This UBI would just be a temporary measure, until America gets the virus under control and people can go back to work. Going back to work in a capitalist, free market economy, can only occur if there are consumers, and there aren't any now. The pandemic has to be resolved, in order for people to feel safe and go out and shop, eat at restaurants, travel..etc. No consumers, no work, because there's no business = No money to pay employees. These people who insist on going to work, when no one is buying or shopping, simply don't understand economics. People need to feel safe, and actually be safe, for there to be a market economy. No public safety, no economy. It's that simple.

The economic infrastructure is still intact, hence if the virus is properly dealt with, the economy will kick-start quickly. We're not in a situation similar to the great depression of the 1930s, where you really did have an economic collapse. What we have now is a national health crises, due to a dangerous virus. Implement the proper safety measures at a national scale to effectively end the pandemic, and the economy, the consumers, all of the workers, businesses, are all there, like sea monkeys, ready to come back to life. These are temporary government measures, designed to help people weather the storm, safely, avoiding a serious medical emergency.

The US's failure to adequately address its homeless crisis is 3rd world and utterly shameful.

Indeed.

In my country there are programs to provide basic subsidized-rent housing to those who don't have homes. It's pretty simple.

Yes it is. What country are you from, if you don't mind me asking?

Nationalizing things is getting into dodgy territory.

A mass pandemic is definitely dodgy territory. If the private sector is unable or unwilling to meet the needs of the nation, then the government should temporarily control the means of production, to produce what the country needs to get through the pandemic. It's that simple. This doesn't imply the government will indefinitely take over these factories and corporations, taking them away from their private owners / share holders. That's not the course of action I'm proposing. These industries would temporarily, for the good of the country, the consumers/customers they serve, produce, under the direction of the government, everything the nation needs to fight the virus. These companies would get paid for what they produce, but they would produce, and the government would make sure this production occurs. It's not open to debate or an evaluation of profitability..etc. In the middle of a serious national, health crises, the facilities of these large corporations would be employed by the government to prevent the death of millions of Americans.

But the US President does have emergency powers he can use to direct existing private companies to produce specific things. Using those powers in a limited way in order to get things done would seem sensible.

Yes, that's essentially what I'm referring to by temporary government control or "nationalization" of factories and other resources of the private sector, to accomplish the nation's mission of dealing with the pandemic. The president would exercise his legal, executive powers, to GET IT DONE. That requires the government to step in and say, "OK this is what we need to do". No debate, no "well we're not interested in participating in this endeavor, we want to continue producing our profitable products and you can find another factory". No, this is an American company, and your country is in a serious crises. This factory will now be repurposed to produce ventilators. Like it, don't like it, that's how its going to be, until we get through this crises. That's what I meant by temporarily nationalizing factories and other private sector resources. Trump failed to do that, hence we are now in a more difficult situation.

Perhaps. Some countries have gone this route. It's still a bit unclear how much masks help or what quality of mask is needed for it to be worthwhile.

I don't know what the rules are here for posting YouTube links. There are several videos showing how masks stop the saliva and aerosols from ejecting into the air when people cough, speak, laugh..etc. Covering one's mouth and nose in public is crucial, for preventing the spread of the virus. There's no debate among the experts on this issue. The nations like Sweden, that are currently attempting to reach herd immunity, without much social distancing or requiring the public to cover their mouths and noses are much smaller nations than the US, with a health system equipped to handle the higher infection and hospitalization rates. The morbidity rate is currently much higher in Sweden, but they're willing and able to sacrifice their people, at an 8% mortality rate. If we did that here in the US, with a population of 330 million people, our hospitals would be overwhelmed with COVID patients and the mortality rate would be as high as 18%. We wouldn't be able to treat everyone who needs medical attention, who otherwise would've survived the infection. We would be looking at millions of Americans dying from this disease, more than have died from all of the wars our country has fought, since the war of independence.

Here in NYC, with social distancing and citywide lock-down, our hospitals were overwhelmed, in mid march, and in April. Large trucks were parked by the hospitals, being loaded with corpses. Mass graves were being dug in graveyards, to bury the dead, who's family's couldn't afford a proper burial. This is in a city, that was practicing strict social distancing and lock down. So you could imagine, what would've occurred if we tried "herd immunity" in NYC. If we just went about our day, like there wasn't a pandemic, we would have literally, a million dead New Yorkers. Yes sure, we would have "herd immunity" after a million New Yorkers die. That's just in one city in the United States. Imagine if we did this throughout the country? Ten million dead? Twenty million? This is a country full of fat people, on hypertensive drugs. People suffering from diseases caused by bad habits, like eating way too many bigmacs and apple pies. If we just say "OK, let the virus run its course through the population", we will have millions of dead Americans. Millions.

Obviously any law needs enforcement. Possibly not with the level of punishment you go on to suggest.

Did you see the demonstration in Michigan about a week ago? Many of them went to the Michigan senate building, unmasked and armed with combat rifles. They stormed into the senate of the state, unmasked and armed with combat rifles, in the middle of a mass pandemic. No, such people deserve to be arrested and punished. You (me, everybody), don't have the right to do whatever you want, in society, especially in the middle of a deadly pandemic. Wearing the mask is a very simple and effective measure to significantly stop the spread of the virus. Those who refuse to wear a mask in public, should be sternly warned by law enforcement, to wear a mask/covering. If after they're warned and even given a mask by police, they refuse to wear it in public, they become a public health hazard. Such people should be arrested and charged with a public health crime. They're seriously endangering the public. An opportunity should be given, for such people to rectify, correct their behavior, but if they insist on placing other people at risk of contracting COVID, they should be detained and punished.

The reckless behavior of these miscreants, can lead to them getting infected, and infecting others. If they infect themselves, due to their foolish, dangerous behavior, will they stay at home and refuse to take a bed and a ventilator in the hospital? Will they refuse medical treatment? They can stay at home and pray to Jesus, right? Why not? Aren't they brave, "rebel patriots" and warriors? They're going to run to the ER, and take a bed away from a person who got infected of no fault of their own? Your grandmother, gets infected at the nursing home and she's taken to a hospital, in critical condition, but unfortunately, a dumb, trump worshiping miscreant buffoon, decided never to wear a mask in public, to defy the government safety measures. OK rebel warrior, stay home and pray to God to heal you.Don't take that bed and ventilator away from that elderly woman, who of no fault of her own she got infected. Be a "rebel" and treat yourself at home, with vitamins and over the counter drugs, and if you die you die. How about that hotshot? No, no, they won't do that, right? They will run to the hospital, the society, the community, after they spend weeks, months, flipping the finger at society, by refusing to wear a mask, trying to make a political statement. Not they run to society, the hospital, for help. How many people did this miscreant "patriot rebel" infect? These people are trash. The vile excrement of the world. They're not the light or the salt of the earth, they are evil.

If someone isn't wearing a mask, because they don't have one, that's OK. If they don't know how to make one, that's not a crime or a sin. The community should help such people get a mask or teach them how to make one. They shouldn't be fined or incarcerated, if they simply don't have access to a mask or the ability to make one. That's different. But someone who intentionally, is walking around without a mask. No. They should pay the piper, and feel some pain. They need to be called out and if they refuse to correct their dangerous behavior, they should be incarcerated, until they "get it", wake up and smell the coffee or they can remain incarcerated, with other fools, who refuse to wear a mask.

Those who like to threaten people with their combat rifles, barging into the state senate like a bunch of bully criminals, without wearing any masks. They deserve whatever pain and suffering they experience, due to their trash behavior. YAHWEH is not on their side. The Bible does not support this type of activity. This wicked, evil behavior.