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Women Speaking to Crowds of People at Public Places

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  • #16
    In Acts 2:4, it is clear that women preached the gospel to unbelievers. The prohibition on women teaching is talking about teaching believers (in church). Women should leave that to men. But women can have a good ministry in getting people saved in the first place.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      In Acts 2:4, it is clear that women preached the gospel to unbelievers. The prohibition on women teaching is talking about teaching believers (in church). Women should leave that to men. But women can have a good ministry in getting people saved in the first place.
      The prohibition deals specifically with women at Ephesus who were behaving disruptively and spreading false teachings, and doing so in a domineering way.

      In the cases of other women like Nympha and Lydia, there was no problem with them being pastors of house-churches. There was no problem with Junia being an apostle. There was no problem with Phoebe being a leader and deacon of the Cenchrean church, and the courier of the letter to the Romans, responsible for reading and explaining it to the congregation.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #18
        The Bible certainly never mentions "Nympha" or Lydia being "pastors of house-churches," and it's a bit dubious whether there was even any person named Nympha at all.

        1 Timothy 3:2-5
        A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          The Bible certainly never mentions "Nympha" or Lydia being "pastors of house-churches,"
          If Lydia were the only example, I'd agree that the evidence in Acts 16 is too vague. The case for Nympha in Col. 4 is stronger, since it is clear that she is the hostess of a church in Laodicea, and no other leader is named for that church.


          and it's a bit dubious whether there was even any person named Nympha at all.
          No, it's really not.


          1 Timothy 3:2-5 (CEB)
          A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

          1Tim 3
          1 This saying is reliable: if anyone has a goal to be a supervisor in the church, they want a good thing. 2 So the church’s supervisor must be without fault. They should be faithful to their spouse, sober, modest, and honest. They should show hospitality and be skilled at teaching. 3 They shouldn’t be addicted to alcohol or a bully. Instead they should be gentle, peaceable, and not greedy. 4 They should manage their own household well—they should see that their children are obedient with complete respect, 5 because if they don’t know how to manage their own household, how can they take care of God’s church?
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #20
            John Piper takes this principle a lot further than even most conservatives. He thinks it's only okay for women to be civil engineers because the orders they would be giving in planning traffic would be ordering men on an impersonal, not personal, level. He implies police officer is a vocation that women can't do.

            http://www.desiringgod.org/interview...olice-officers
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #21
              @NorrinRadd

              Well if you don't mind re-writing the text of God's word then I guess you can have female pastors.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                @NorrinRadd

                Well if you don't mind re-writing the text of God's word then I guess you can have female pastors.
                What exactly do you believe I (or more precisely, the CEB) re-wrote?
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #23
                  The parts where you change "wife/woman" to "spouse," and "rule" to "manage."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    The parts where you change "wife/woman" to "spouse,"...
                    That is because the expression your translation renders as "husband of one wife" is literally "one-woman man," and idiomatically "faithful husband" (usually) or "faithful spouse" (sometimes). Since, contrary to the implications of your translation, there are actually zero male pronouns in the passage, the gender-inclusive "spouse" is reasonable.


                    ... and "rule" to "manage."
                    Interesting insight into your mindset. Does it matter to you that the same word is translated "engage" in Tit. 3:8 and 3:14? Does it matter to you that BDAG cites "manage" as a legitimate meaning of "proistemi"; that Vine lists "attend to", and that Liddell/Scott include "govern, direct, manage" as meanings of the word?

                    More interestingly, how do you feel about the fact that in Rom. 16, a form of the same word is used to describe Phoebe?
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                      I read somewhere that in Atheist gatherings you're not allowed to speak if you're an effeminate man.
                      They have to wear hijabs.
                      The last Christian left at tweb

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd
                        Since, contrary to the implications of your translation, there are actually zero male pronouns in the passage, the gender-inclusive "spouse" is reasonable.
                        Dumb argument. It specifically says the words "man," and "woman" or "wife." A woman pastor doesn't have a wife -- unless you want to go to the Methodist church, where they do that now.

                        Interesting insight into your mindset. Does it matter to you that the same word is translated "engage" in Tit. 3:8 and 3:14? Does it matter to you that BDAG cites "manage" as a legitimate meaning of "proistemi"; that Vine lists "attend to", and that Liddell/Scott include "govern, direct, manage" as meanings of the word?
                        It specifically refers to having children in subjection. Hence, clearly the meaning is to "rule."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          Dumb argument. It specifically says the words "man," and "woman" or "wife." A woman pastor doesn't have a wife -- unless you want to go to the Methodist church, where they do that now.
                          How is it "dumb" to recognize a figure of speech AS a figure of speech?


                          It specifically refers to having children in subjection. Hence, clearly the meaning is to "rule."
                          That's a better point. Dictionaries are pretty consistent in giving "submission" or "subjection" as almost the only definition. There is *some* flexibility in actual usage, since the related term is used in Eph. 5:21 of the way all believers are to relate to each other. And really, there is no reason to prefer "rule" over "manage," unless you enjoy thinking of yourself in dictatorial "boss-man" terms.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            That is because the expression your translation renders as "husband of one wife" is literally "one-woman man," and idiomatically "faithful husband" (usually) or "faithful spouse" (sometimes). Since, contrary to the implications of your translation, there are actually zero male pronouns in the passage, the gender-inclusive "spouse" is reasonable.
                            Nice story, but it doesn't fly: ειναι "being" μιας γυναικος "OF one woman" ανδρα "(the・a) man". Context shows that the secondary definitions ("wife" and "husband") are correct for this verse, and the declension for both "one" and "woman" being genitive, "of one wife" is inescapable.




                            Interesting insight into your mindset. Does it matter to you that the same word is translated "engage" in Tit. 3:8 and 3:14? Does it matter to you that BDAG cites "manage" as a legitimate meaning of "proistemi"; that Vine lists "attend to", and that Liddell/Scott include "govern, direct, manage" as meanings of the word?
                            προιστημι here is middle voice: προισταμενον. According to both Liddell.Scott.Jones and Middle.Liddell, this has a causative connotation, and does put a person in a position of leadership. Though noting that the middle voice makes it possible for a person to appoint someone as his (or her) leader, "govern" or "rule" would be more appropriate than "serve" or "attend to" for the conjugation in use (present middle participle accusative singular masculine). However .... people who want to consider a woman precluded from eldership on the basis of this verse have a hard row to hoe. Quite simply, the passage may well be considered to have its focus upon MEN who aspire to eldership. It CANNOT be shown that the passage has any relevance whatever to the matter of women who aspire to eldership. Women may simply not be in the frame.

                            More interestingly, how do you feel about the fact that in Rom. 16, a form of the same word is used to describe Phoebe?
                            Romans 16 shows that "SISTER Phoebe" is a deacon (not a deaconess).

                            And just to show what a worry some theological dictionaries can be ...
                            διάκονος diakonos (d̮iy-a'-ko-nos) n.
                            1. an attendant, a servant.
                            2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties).
                            3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc).
                            Last edited by tabibito; 03-06-2017, 01:30 AM.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              It is scripture. But even in scripture every word is not a command from God. In the verses in question he use "I" showing that it is HIS way. Personal advice.
                              Yes. So in this case, please give the hermeneutic one needs to understand the distinction between the Apostle Paul's apostolic instructions from his non-apostolic personal opinion being given in the God-breathed text to Timothy.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Yes. So in this case, please give the hermeneutic one needs to understand the distinction between the Apostle Paul's apostolic instructions from his non-apostolic personal opinion being given in the God-breathed text to Timothy.
                                He said "I don't..."

                                Comment

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