My Friend, the Missionary to the Muslims - and the "Visions"

[Cow Poke]

I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...

So, you can only "assent" to a religion you can 'understand'?

Every book in the NT with the exception of Philemon deals with false prophets. Muhammad is a false prophet. Jesus warned of false prophets. You have a very perverted understanding of who Jesus is. In Jesus alone there is Salvation. The Bible says, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

The visions do not "explain" Jesus - they simply reveal Him telling a Muslim to go to a particular Church or Pastor, or simply tell them that the Bible is the Truth. One of the recipients of the vision said she was exasperated with trying to know Allah, because, while you guys claim he is 'merciful', he seems to be rather bloodthirsty these days. She was forced to watch some of your brethren chop the heads off of Christians, and knew in her heart that this had to be just a bunch of power thirsty men using Allah as an excuse to murder.

I cannot "give assent" to a false religion with a false prophet from a false book that teaches that Christians and Jews are to be hunted down and killed. You pretend that you have respect for Jesus, yet if He were alive today in the flesh, your 'brethren' would be required to hunt Him down and kill him. Despite your pleasant words, I'm not feeling the love, Bro.

[Cerebrum123]

I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...

Ah, so you will only accept a God you can put in your own little box. I don't fully understand the Trinity myself, but the Bible clearly teaches the concept. Jesus is clearly God, the Father is clearly God, and the Holy Spirit is clearly God. They all do things, and say things that only God could say and be true. It's also clear that God is one. It's also clear that all three are persons

"Sunnah" (the way)---are the record of teachings/sayings, deeds...etc of a Prophet.

Which since you already admit you don't know what Jesus taught you can't say it lines up with that of Mohammed. You need to learn what Jesus actually taught before you can understand whether or not he fit what Mohammed said about Him.

Those words are actually very clear. Jesus is saying that by seeing Him, that you are seeing the Father. It's a claim to divinity, and doesn't need any kind of special "interpretation".

Jesus taught things diametrically opposed to what Mohammed taught. Mohammed claimed that he confirmed past teachings of God. Mohammed lied, therefore he is a false prophet. Jesus repeatedly makes claims to be divine. Mohammed claimed that Jesus was just like any other prophet. Some easily accessible information on the Trinity is here.

Mohammed also contradicted the Torah, which is why the Jews of his time mostly rejected him. He couldn't handle that so he slaughtered them.

[Cow Poke]

Mohammed also contradicted the Torah, which is why the Jews of his time mostly rejected him. He couldn't handle that so he slaughtered them.

Such a nice guy. Or, in Siam's parlance, "what a cool dude".

[siam]

@ Scrawley
Thanks for the video...it was informative. A Jewish Rabbi named Tovia Singer has also addressed these issues from a Jewish perspective.
Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages so many of the concept words in the Torah also appear in the Quran. The Hebrew "Achad" = Arabic "Ahad" (One). But, for me, the video raises more questions than it answers...for example, if Achad is a "complex unity"--why stop at 3? ...and so on.....
I have asked such questions to Christians previously---and at the end of long discussions, the Christian usually concludes that it is a mystery.
Personally, I think its the best and smartest answer a Christian can give---and I don't see any reason why the premise of a religion cannot be based on mystery---after all, there are many believers who are comfortable with such an assumption. But for me---because of my predisposition---this is a barrier....

[siam]

Ah, so you will only accept a God you can put in your own little box. I don't fully understand the Trinity myself, but the Bible clearly teaches the concept. Jesus is clearly God, the Father is clearly God, and the Holy Spirit is clearly God. They all do things, and say things that only God could say and be true. It's also clear that God is one. It's also clear that all three are personsclaims to be divine. Mohammed claimed that Jesus was just like any other prophet. Some easily accessible information on the Trinity is here.

Mohammed also contradicted the Torah, which is why the Jews of his time mostly rejected him. He couldn't handle that so he slaughtered them.

I have no objection to you being a Christian---and no desire to convert you to Islam.
To you is your way and to me is mine.

Those not exposed to Christian teachings may not see what a Christian claims to see in the texts---that is just how it is. I also found this to be so of the Torah (Bereisht)---a raw read was very disturbing, but when I read it with the help of a Jewish person I was able to appreciate some of its wisdom....

[Scrawly]

@ Scrawley
Thanks for the video...it was informative. A Jewish Rabbi named Tovia Singer has also addressed these issues from a Jewish perspective.
Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages so many of the concept words in the Torah also appear in the Quran. The Hebrew "Achad" = Arabic "Ahad" (One). But, for me, the video raises more questions than it answers...for example, if Achad is a "complex unity"--why stop at 3? ...and so on.....
I have asked such questions to Christians previously---and at the end of long discussions, the Christian usually concludes that it is a mystery.
Personally, I think its the best and smartest answer a Christian can give---and I don't see any reason why the premise of a religion cannot be based on mystery---after all, there are many believers who are comfortable with such an assumption. But for me---because of my predisposition---this is a barrier....

Glad you enjoyed it. Michael Brown actually debated Tovia Singer. The debate(s) are on youtube if you're interested. I wouldn't say that Christianity is based on a mystery, but rather it's based on revelation, and aspects of that revelation are naturally mysterious from a human standpoint. The God revealed in the bible is tri-unity in nature. Mystery comes into play when we try and reduce the infinite God to finite conceptual categories. God is transcendent yet imminent and "the word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).

[siam]

Glad you enjoyed it. Michael Brown actually debated Tovia Singer. The debate(s) are on youtube if you're interested. I wouldn't say that Christianity is based on a mystery, but rather it's based on revelation, and aspects of that revelation are naturally mysterious from a human standpoint. The God revealed in the bible is tri-unity in nature. Mystery comes into play when we try and reduce the infinite God to finite conceptual categories. God is transcendent yet imminent and "the word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).

[siam]

In case anyone is interested in where Muslims get their ideas about Prophet Jesus (pbuh)---After Islam began, the mass production of paper made it easier to write books and so a lot of things were written down---these narrations are lumped as "traditions" and among the traditions is the "Israiliyat"---the stories, narrations, sayings, etc... from Jews and Christians of the East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra%27iliyyat

---among the various Arabic literature, there are saying of Prophet Jesus (pbuh)---today there have been attempts to collect them into one place/book....
an example is:---
https://omarshahid.co.uk/2011/07/09/...mic-tradition/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s5B8dKqlsA

[Cow Poke]

In case anyone is interested in where Muslims get their ideas about Prophet Jesus

They totally made it up.

[Cerebrum123]

I have no objection to you being a Christian---and no desire to convert you to Islam.
To you is your way and to me is mine.

Then you take Mohammed and Islam less seriously than I do. In fact, I'm rather insulted that you as a Muslim have no desire to convert me to Islam. It takes some real hate to not want to tell someone the truth about what will allow them to avoid hell.

Those not exposed to Christian teachings may not see what a Christian claims to see in the texts---that is just how it is. I also found this to be so of the Torah (Bereisht)---a raw read was very disturbing, but when I read it with the help of a Jewish person I was able to appreciate some of its wisdom....

You find that disturbing, but not the Quran? Your sense of morals is seriously twisted if you can't see the abundant horrors that lie in the Quran.

[Cerebrum123]

The Quran discourages the "chosen people" concept---all humanity are created by God and his mercy and compassion---and grace--- fall on every human being.

and scourge them

[siam]

They totally made it up.

Perhaps....
But wisdom is universal regardless of the name/label attached to it, Confucius, Buddha, or Prophets.....
Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is important to Sufi as they are generally mystics and Prophet Jesus (pbuh), in Islam, is also considered highly spiritual....

[siam]

Then you take Mohammed and Islam less seriously than I do. In fact, I'm rather insulted that you as a Muslim have no desire to convert me to Islam. It takes some real hate to not want to tell someone the truth about what will allow them to avoid hell.




You find that disturbing, but not the Quran? Your sense of morals is seriously twisted if you can't see the abundant horrors that lie in the Quran.

hell---It is not enough to simply pronounce the shahada in front of witnesses and self-label oneself "Muslim"---Islam needs to be practiced (to do for God) and that needs a commitment and discipline. I can inform someone about Islam---but if they are serious about learning it---I would advise them to go to someone more knowledgeable than me so that they have the right information to make the right decision.
It is not about hate---I simply lack the patience...

I read the Quran in context...likewise there was wisdom in the Torah once the Jewish person explained the context....

[Cow Poke]

hell---It is not enough to simply pronounce the shahada in front of witnesses and self-label oneself "Muslim"---Islam needs to be practiced (to do for God) and that needs a commitment and discipline. I can inform someone about Islam---but if they are serious about learning it---I would advise them to go to someone more knowledgeable than me so that they have the right information to make the right decision.
It is not about hate---I simply lack the patience...

I read the Quran in context...likewise there was wisdom in the Torah once the Jewish person explained the context....

None of this changes the fact that Muhummad was a false prophet, and Islam is insanity.

[Cerebrum123]

hell---It is not enough to simply pronounce the shahada in front of witnesses and self-label oneself "Muslim"---Islam needs to be practiced (to do for God) and that needs a commitment and discipline. I can inform someone about Islam---but if they are serious about learning it---I would advise them to go to someone more knowledgeable than me so that they have the right information to make the right decision.
It is not about hate---I simply lack the patience...

I know that, to be a true Muslim you have to unquestioningly follow Mohammed and "Allah".

Surah 4:65 Sahih International: But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

Islam is about submitting to Mohammed, regardless of how horrible his commands and decisions were. If you even have a little bit of hesitation in following him, then you're not a true Muslim according to the Quran.

I read the Quran in context...likewise there was wisdom in the Torah once the Jewish person explained the context....