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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by hamster View Post
    I've been watching youtubes of this "September 23" "Rapture Puzzle" stuff, and I realized that I don't really know how to examine their claims at all. Is there an objective source, like a book, or something, that explains biblical prophecy well? I have almost entirely neglected this aspect of my religion and I'd like to catch up. You know, before the 23rd when the rapture happens
    The Bible and the Future, by the late A. A. Hoekema, is a very good treatment, from a Calvinist POV. Strongly recommended.
    http://www.eerdmans.com/Products/085...he-future.aspx

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      How so? The return of Christ (1 Cor 15:52) is best correlated with Rev. 20:13-21:3, which is after the millennial reign.
      Christ returns before the millennial reign (Revelation 20:6). To say otherwise is to deny God's word.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Christ returns before the millennial reign (Revelation 20:6). To say otherwise is to deny God's word.
        Your opinion is duly noted.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #34
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Your opinion is duly noted.
          OK. Could you please then give your understanding of Revelation 20:6?
          Revelation 20:6,
          . . . Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. . . .
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #35
            It doesn't actually say anything about Christ being on earth when that happens.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              It doesn't actually say anything about Christ being on earth when that happens.
              Revelation 20:4-5,
              . . . And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. . . .

              Who do you think the resurrected Christians are going to rule? Why would it be not on earth?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #37
                William Lane Craig did a very good 14 part study called "Defender's Series: Doctrine of the Last Things," at YouTube.
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...tS1rVt5ScDiwnR
                The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by hamster View Post
                  I've been watching youtubes of this "September 23" "Rapture Puzzle" stuff, and I realized that I don't really know how to examine their claims at all. Is there an objective source, like a book, or something, that explains biblical prophecy well? I have almost entirely neglected this aspect of my religion and I'd like to catch up. You know, before the 23rd when the rapture happens
                  I recommend these 2 sites:

                  This one is a comprehensive site that includes all variations of Dispensationalism, all various views Futurism, Preterism, Amill etc.

                  It also includes the Jewish historian Josephus, who witnessed the the Jewish Wars leading up to the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the siege of Masada in 73AD that ended the Jewish Revolt..

                  https://www.preteristarchive.com/

                  https://www.preteristarchive.com/jos...-the-jews-511/

                  And this site which describes the 1st century Jewish/Roman War as witnesses by Josephus:

                  http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction7...ord-1805AD.htm

                  Also see: Rapture refuted

                  By George Peter Holford
                  (Written in 1805)

                  "I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
                  if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
                  (Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

                  PREFACE

                  History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION..........................

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by hamster View Post
                    I've been watching youtubes of this "September 23" "Rapture Puzzle" stuff, and I realized that I don't really know how to examine their claims at all. Is there an objective source, like a book, or something, that explains biblical prophecy well? I have almost entirely neglected this aspect of my religion and I'd like to catch up. You know, before the 23rd when the rapture happens
                    If you study Jesus' description of the kingdom as being spiritual in the gospels, you can rule out a physical millennium. From there you can deduce that the OT kingdom prophecies are symbolic of that kingdom, not to be taken literally.

                    Daniel said the kingdom would come in the time of the ancient Roman Empire. Jesus proved that it did as he preached it. Most however expected the physical millennium of the Pharisees and rejected his gospel of the kingdom. This is the present state of all end-time theories.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      If you study Jesus' description of the kingdom as being spiritual in the gospels, you can rule out a physical millennium. From there you can deduce that the OT kingdom prophecies are symbolic of that kingdom, not to be taken literally.
                      "As the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be." Jesus took the flood literally, as He did the endtimes before His return and physical descent onto the Mount of Olives, as the angels told the disciples He would return. Burn.

                      Daniel said the kingdom would come in the time of the ancient Roman Empire. Jesus proved that it did as he preached it. Most however expected the physical millennium of the Pharisees and rejected his gospel of the kingdom. This is the present state of all end-time theories.
                      The Roman empire became something else "mixed with clay" in Daniel. And this amalgamation is what would be destroyed to usher in the physical kingdom of Jesus Christ. So you're wrong all around. Man is a spiritual and physical being and so shall the kingdom be. Jesus stressed the spiritual aspect the first time around and the blood of His enemies will be as high as the horse's bridle the second time around.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                        "As the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be." Jesus took the flood literally, as He did the endtimes before His return and physical descent onto the Mount of Olives, as the angels told the disciples He would return. Burn.



                        The Roman empire became something else "mixed with clay" in Daniel. And this amalgamation is what would be destroyed to usher in the physical kingdom of Jesus Christ. So you're wrong all around. Man is a spiritual and physical being and so shall the kingdom be. Jesus stressed the spiritual aspect the first time around and the blood of His enemies will be as high as the horse's bridle the second time around.
                        Jesus said the kingdom is within you. How can it be physical? He said only the born again can see it..... Keep studying...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          Jesus said the kingdom is within you. How can it be physical? He said only the born again can see it..... Keep studying...
                          You cannot be a member of the kingdom unless you are born again. In that sense, it is "spiritual" because your spirit must be renewed to partake of the kingdom. But the fellowship of the saints requires a physical kingdom, as does the redemption of the earth, which the meek shall inherit and the judgment of the wicked. Keep studying. You seem to be missing more than half of the scriptures which talks about God's judgment being poured out on the world and the remnant inheriting the land promised to Abraham.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                            You cannot be a member of the kingdom unless you are born again. In that sense, it is "spiritual" because your spirit must be renewed to partake of the kingdom. But the fellowship of the saints requires a physical kingdom, as does the redemption of the earth, which the meek shall inherit and the judgment of the wicked. Keep studying. You seem to be missing more than half of the scriptures which talks about God's judgment being poured out on the world and the remnant inheriting the land promised to Abraham.
                            The world ends in fire. What more can you ask for?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dave L View Post
                              The world ends in fire. What more can you ask for?
                              So as usual, you take the prophecies literally when it suits you. The world ends in fire after the Millenium, not before.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                                You cannot be a member of the kingdom unless you are born again. In that sense, it is "spiritual" because your spirit must be renewed to partake of the kingdom. But the fellowship of the saints requires a physical kingdom, as does the redemption of the earth, which the meek shall inherit and the judgment of the wicked. Keep studying. You seem to be missing more than half of the scriptures which talks about God's judgment being poured out on the world and the remnant inheriting the land promised to Abraham.
                                The kingdom is invisible until two or three meets for worship. And then returns to invisibility. There is no physical millennium.

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