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  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Whatever it was intended to be, it's public now and has caused a whole lot of offense. Had it been worded better, it wouldn't have caused nearly as much trouble. Nope, the report itself is the source of the offense.
    You have been corrected several times now; I don’t understand why you are being so deliberately obtuse.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      You have been corrected several times now; I don’t understand why you are being so deliberately obtuse.
      No, you are simply wrong. Had the report not been inflammatory the leak would not have mattered. Simple, rational logic - unlike your nonsense.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Just so we're clear, an assessment that differs from your own is not inherently dishonest. Also, weren't you agreeing with Zara's 'relying on experts' argument? One of us has a Master's in Political Science and I'm pretty sure it isn't you.
        I have no idea what you are talking about as it relates to Zara's argument on client science. Are you trying to say that my opinion on this has no merit since you have a master's in Political Science and I don't?

        Jim
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Whatever it was intended to be, it's public now and has caused a whole lot of offense. Had it been worded better, it wouldn't have caused nearly as much trouble. Nope, the report itself is the source of the offense.
          As I said before - I'd bet the farm there are 1000s of equally offensive private comments and communications out there between diplomats of various shapes and sizes. Probably ones that could cause a great deal of offense more than this one did.

          Yet those private comments and communique's are not causing any problems right now. Are the diplomats that uttered them better than the UK ambassador under discussion? Is that why?

          No - the reason they are not causing trouble is their content is not known.

          Therefore, it is the making the content known that is the problem.

          What made the content known?

          The leak.

          Therefore, the leak is the problem, not the communique.


          Jim
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Just so we're clear, an assessment that differs from your own is not inherently dishonest. Also, weren't you agreeing with Zara's 'relying on experts' argument? One of us has a Master's in Political Science and I'm pretty sure it isn't you.
            I meant, peer-reviewed through an independent academy and journal. And that related to facts about nature. Value and normative based disagreements are somewhat different. You can have your say about policy initiatives in relation to those facts.

            I'm not sure what firstfloor does, but they seem pretty onto it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              I have no idea what you are talking about as it relates to Zara's argument on client science. Are you trying to say that my opinion on this has no merit since you have a master's in Political Science and I don't?

              Jim
              Not really, since I argued the opposite. I just find it irritating that someone who advocates/agrees with surrendering policy decisions to experts implies my arguably expert assessment is dishonest. Not to mention the intellectual inconsistency...

              For the record ('cause FF2 will have a cow) I don't think I am correct because I have alphabet soup after my name; I think I'm right because I'm arguing the stronger case.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                I meant, peer-reviewed through an independent academy and journal. And that related to facts about nature. Value and normative based disagreements are somewhat different. You can have your say about policy initiatives in relation to those facts.

                I'm not sure what firstfloor does, but they seem pretty onto it.
                Oh, so you trust experts only when convenient for your argument. Got it.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  As I said before - I'd bet the farm there are 1000s of equally offensive private comments and communications out there between diplomats of various shapes and sizes. Probably ones that could cause a great deal of offense more than this one did.

                  Yet those private comments and communique's are not causing any problems right now. Are the diplomats that uttered them better than the UK ambassador under discussion? Is that why?

                  No - the reason they are not causing trouble is their content is not known.

                  Therefore, it is the making the content known that is the problem.

                  What made the content known?

                  The leak.

                  Therefore, the leak is the problem, not the communique.


                  Jim
                  There are probably thousands of defective cars on the road right now but it's okay because they haven't caused a wreck yet. However, when the inevitable wreck does happen, I assure you the driver that knowingly drove the car and failed to take it in for the recall WILL be liable.

                  That other people are equally incompetent isn't mitigation for the wreck or the international incident this ambassador caused by ineptly putting such insults in an official diplomatic report.

                  You're literally arguing that lighting a match next to a gasoline spill wasn't causative in the explosion.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Oh, so you trust experts only when convenient for your argument. Got it.
                    No, just what an expert looks like. This was covered in my previous posts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      There are probably thousands of defective cars on the road right now but it's okay because they haven't caused a wreck yet. However, when the inevitable wreck does happen, I assure you the driver that knowingly drove the car and failed to take it in for the recall WILL be liable.

                      That other people are equally incompetent isn't mitigation for the wreck or the international incident this ambassador caused by ineptly putting such insults in an official diplomatic report.

                      You're literally arguing that lighting a match next to a gasoline spill wasn't causative in the explosion.
                      The explosion had already happened, he was just reporting it back in relatively informal language. Even if he had used diplomatic coded language, his reports on the administration wouldn't have been different. That remains a concern; as does how and why the information was leaked.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Not really, since I argued the opposite. I just find it irritating that someone who advocates/agrees with surrendering policy decisions to experts implies my arguably expert assessment is dishonest. Not to mention the intellectual inconsistency...

                        For the record ('cause FF2 will have a cow) I don't think I am correct because I have alphabet soup after my name; I think I'm right because I'm arguing the stronger case.
                        You still are making no sense. Are you confusing me with someone else?

                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          There are probably thousands of defective cars on the road right now but it's okay because they haven't caused a wreck yet. However, when the inevitable wreck does happen, I assure you the driver that knowingly drove the car and failed to take it in for the recall WILL be liable.

                          That other people are equally incompetent isn't mitigation for the wreck or the international incident this ambassador caused by ineptly putting such insults in an official diplomatic report.

                          You're literally arguing that lighting a match next to a gasoline spill wasn't causative in the explosion.
                          No, im arguing that most ambassadors try to give their true assessments, and that most of the time that means things have to be said that if they were made public they would embarass or disappoint or offend the people involved.

                          People in charge or in power rarely see themselves for who they are.


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            You still are making no sense. Are you confusing me with someone else?

                            Jim
                            As I stated, you supported Zara's argument.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              No, im arguing that most ambassadors try to give their true assessments, and that most of the time that means things have to be said that if they were made public they would embarass or disappoint or offend the people involved.

                              People in charge or in power rarely see themselves for who they are.


                              Jim
                              You have been arguing that the leak, not the report, is the source of the trouble. However, it's the report, not the leak, that has inflamed the situation.

                              'You're being rather unreasonable' versus 'You're a jerk'. Good ambassadors know not to put in writing anything they don't want to see on the front page because leaks and intel losses are inevitable. And good ambassadors know how to write diplomatically. Your argument seems to be 'well, other diplomats are also that stupid'. Great, even if true, it does not justify this one - or make his incompetence competent.

                              No one sees themselves perfectly - nor do we ever perfectly understand others. Especially when blinded by our own prejudices. This is why it's best to assess others charitably - in hopes of receiving the same.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                                The explosion had already happened, he was just reporting it back in relatively informal language. Even if he had used diplomatic coded language, his reports on the administration wouldn't have been different. That remains a concern; as does how and why the information was leaked.
                                If he'd written tactfully, the incident would have been minor, if even that. But no, he writes like a kid and voila, international incident.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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