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Pope Francis: Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

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  • #91
    And God will say, "Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you".


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #92
      Muslim God - Brown
      Christian God - White
      ?
      I am become death...

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
        Muslim God - Brown
        Christian God - White
        ?
        If you are referring to Jesus, he would have been a brown man, not a white one.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
          Muslim God - Brown
          Christian God - White
          ?

          This so called one who is being worshiped as god by human beings born in Islamic faith has no image nor looks like a man or female as per their scripture and as per islamic followers. So it cannot have a color.

          Christian God is father son and holy spirit. If you consider the color of jews and greeks to be white than the skin texture of heavenly father is white if you dont it is not.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            And God will say, "Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you".
            No one in this thread disagrees with that regarding people who explicitly reject Christ. You do understand this right?

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Sparko
              No more than if I said I believed in George Washington and then proceeded to say he was a black woman who came from Africa and disguised herself to be a white general and became the first president. The George Washington I believed in would be a false one. Not the same one as the real one at all. I just believe in a lie and give it the same name as the first president. If later I find out about the real GW and come to believe that, can I still honestly say "Oh I always believed in George Washington, I just didn't know the right details" - heck no. The GW I believed in was entirely made up and the only resemblance to the real GW was the name and the title "First President"
              Actually, as long as they believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States of America, that he served from 1789 to 1797, crossed the River Delaware, defeated the British armies at Trenton and Princeton, retook New Jersey. That he was opposed to dictatorship and was an avowed Republican. Presided over the Constitutional Convention in 1789. Secured the Jay Treaty in 1795. Died in 1799.

              If they believed in all those things, then when you refer to George Washington, regarding that period, and they're referring to George Washington, regarding that period, then you're undoubtedly referring to the same person.

              In order to refer truly to someone, you don't have to have perfect knowledge, otherwise, even the tiniest deviation from the truth would mean you're referring to something else.

              I'm not sure I have a perfect understanding of you Sparko, and I probably have a few misconceptions. But despite that, I believe I'm still referring to you, even if I were so mistaken as to misremember you as a Bernie Sanders supporter.

              Now as regards to God, as I already explained. While it's true that the Tawheed in Islam, describe a different God, I'll agree with you that far, it is also true that Muslims worship God the Creator.

              Allah is a foreign creature because of his oneness. Their explicit rejection of the trinity is a heresy.

              However, on the other hand, I think they are worshipping God whenever they worship the Creator of the Universe. The greatest being. The one most powerful. The source and end of all things. The giver of the law. The source of truth. The one impassible, changeless and timeless.

              Each of those sentences is true only of God. He is one with his properties. If one of them is true of anyone, then that one is God.

              Like in the George Washington analogy, in those situations they can't but be worshipping God. Even if in other regards they believe false things about him.

              Is their worship pleasing to him? I think its dubious because they're not in communion with him. They don't have the true faith without which it is impossible to please God as we hear in the epistles.n.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                Why hasn't there been any discussion of Paul's speech at the Areopagus (Acts 17)?
                Psst. Post #46.

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                • #98
                  ''However, on the other hand, I think they are worshipping God whenever they worship the Creator of the Universe. The greatest being. The one most powerful. The source and end of all things. The giver of the law. The source of truth. The one impassible, changeless and timeless.''

                  If we go by this logic that just by saying they worship the creator of this world.Than this should also apply to hindus and others who believe in the creator of this world aswell.Even hindus say they believe the creator of this world when they worship. Their scripture also mentions that there is only one God. All those words describing god are even mentioned in other scriptures as well. So by this logic everybody is worshiping The Creator of this world than not just muslims.

                  For someone to claim they worship True God it requires the scripture to be truthful or it requires to know how God is comprised of that is the 'father son and holy spirit' or that person must see God in dreams/visions. Regarding that George Washington analogy people have seen him and know who he was.Whereas nobody has seen God in total but they know god through truthful bible scriptures. What if same words you speak of George Washington was said for another George Washington as a lie? They say those words because it happened and are truthful They know who he was.Where people have not seen God and know him through the power of his turthful scripture which muslims claim to be corrupt to suit their islamic agenda.
                  Last edited by noikodee; 03-13-2017, 07:28 AM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
                    Does not having the same idea of who God is necessitate that it is a different God that one believes in and worships?
                    Can one worship the same God even though they have a different idea of who He is?
                    to a certain extent. You might not know every detail, but if the God you believe in is completely different than the God of the bible, then you don't believe in the God of the bible, do you?

                    Back to my example of George Washington.

                    If you believe George Washington was a black woman who tricked people into thinking she was a white man and became the first President of the USA, do you really believe in the real George Washington? You believe a George Washington was President, but every other detail is wrong.

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                    • Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
                      I thought this was an interesting analogy-feel free to dissect.
                      Totally different. How many children TJ had is a superficial fact, it doesn't affect the nature of TJ. If God is a Trinity is more than the Father begetting the Son. It concerns the very nature of God. It would be like saying Thomas Jefferson was an Alien from mars instead of a human being. No you would not be believing in the same Thomas Jefferson.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        Why hasn't there been any discussion of Paul's speech at the Areopagus (Acts 17)? This is where Paul quotes the Greek poets in evangelizing to the Greeks.

                        In Acts 17:23, Paul suggests that some of the Greeks were worshiping God but not even aware of it. (My understanding of the context of this is that the polytheistic Greeks, not wanting to offend any god, would put up altars to an "Unknown god".) In the next few verses, Paul suggests that the pagan Greeks have nonetheless still gotten some things right about God.

                        I had a friend years ago who was Mormon but not particularly devout. She ended up later going to a non-denominational Protestant church and I don't think saw it as a drastic change. I don't know how serious she ever was about any of it but it would seem arbitrary to me to say that one week she was worshiping one God and the other week she wasn't, absent a total conscious change in worldview. (I say that because I don't think there was one. She simply thought as a Mormon she already was a Christian, and now she was going to "another" Christian church.)

                        So even if members of cults that are offshoots of Christianity are completely wrong in their concept of God and do not have a saving knowledge of God, it's still a leap to say it's a different God altogether.
                        Paul was making a segway. He wasn't seriously saying that the statue to an unknown God was an Idol of Jehovah. He was making the point that they didn't know the real God (he was unknown) and yet knew that there was something out there more than their standard idols and wooden gods. He went on to explain who the real God was. He wasn't a statue of stone or wood, etc.

                        Mormons think they are worshiping the same God as the Christians, but they do not. They think we don't know about the real God but they do. We think the opposite. They think that an Adam on another planet was glorified and became God, and he and his wife (mother God) sit in heaven making spirit bodies for eternal intelligences that have always existed. Those intelligences join the spirit bodies and then God sends them to earth to be born as us. If we are good mormons, then when we die they become glorified Gods and get their own planets to rule over with their wife.

                        Now they take the real God and some facts in the OT and NT and make them mean something completely different. What they worship is based on the God of the bible, but the result is nothing like the real God of the bible. He is a glorified man and we each can become just like him. He didn't create the universe, just this planet. and there were an infinite number of Gods before him. And they are still out there.

                        Islam is no better.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Actually, as long as they believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States of America, that he served from 1789 to 1797, crossed the River Delaware, defeated the British armies at Trenton and Princeton, retook New Jersey. That he was opposed to dictatorship and was an avowed Republican. Presided over the Constitutional Convention in 1789. Secured the Jay Treaty in 1795. Died in 1799.

                          If they believed in all those things, then when you refer to George Washington, regarding that period, and they're referring to George Washington, regarding that period, then you're undoubtedly referring to the same person.

                          In order to refer truly to someone, you don't have to have perfect knowledge, otherwise, even the tiniest deviation from the truth would mean you're referring to something else.

                          I'm not sure I have a perfect understanding of you Sparko, and I probably have a few misconceptions. But despite that, I believe I'm still referring to you, even if I were so mistaken as to misremember you as a Bernie Sanders supporter.

                          Now as regards to God, as I already explained. While it's true that the Tawheed in Islam, describe a different God, I'll agree with you that far, it is also true that Muslims worship God the Creator.

                          Allah is a foreign creature because of his oneness. Their explicit rejection of the trinity is a heresy.

                          However, on the other hand, I think they are worshipping God whenever they worship the Creator of the Universe. The greatest being. The one most powerful. The source and end of all things. The giver of the law. The source of truth. The one impassible, changeless and timeless.

                          Each of those sentences is true only of God. He is one with his properties. If one of them is true of anyone, then that one is God.

                          Like in the George Washington analogy, in those situations they can't but be worshipping God. Even if in other regards they believe false things about him.

                          Is their worship pleasing to him? I think its dubious because they're not in communion with him. They don't have the true faith without which it is impossible to please God as we hear in the epistles.n.
                          Not if I believed the fundamental nature of George Washington was black woman in disguise. Who lived a lie and enjoyed fooling the country because she was evil, and had secret plans with the Illuminati to start an underground society of Free Masons who rule the world and control all the banks.

                          This is what the Muslims do to the God of the Bible. He is superficially the same, but fundamentally different. Different nature, different emotions, different plans, different everything. Even to hating the chosen people of God, the Jews and Christians. Even to promising 72 virgins to people who kill themselves in his name.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            No one in this thread disagrees with that regarding people who explicitly reject Christ. You do understand this right?

                            The context in scripture is regarding those who THINK they know God. They live their lives believing they are fine and worshipping the "right" God. They have either deceived themselves or been deceived.

                            This would even refer to many who call themselves Christian.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • Judaism and Catholicism are Satanic religions, too. It doesn't mean they actually worship a different god. It just means that they blaspheme Christ, and that God isn't pleased with them.

                              Ultimately, whether two different religions worship the 'same god' isn't an issue that the Bible even discusses, or cares about. The Bible lays out plenty of things that God really does care about: He cares about whether we obey his law. Muslims don't even believe in the law, as laid out in the Bible; they think it is corrupted, that we are supposed to cut off people's hands for stealing, etc. Muslims worship God but they do it very badly. Muslims are like the Samaritan (Northern) Israelite kingdom that set up two golden calves, and had the people worship those as God. Whether they were worshipping the same "God" or not was never the issue; the issue was that they were disobeying God's commandment against idols (in addition to disregarding the real temple, tolerating Baal, and doing other major sins).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                                The context in scripture is regarding those who THINK they know God. They live their lives believing they are fine and worshipping the "right" God. They have either deceived themselves or been deceived.

                                This would even refer to many who call themselves Christian.
                                So who are you addressing in this thread?

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