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  • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Genesis 2:7 speaks of "the breath of life" as existing before God breathed it into Adam's nostrils.
    It is what became Adam's spirit.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      It is what became Adam's spirit.
      The text of genesis 2:7 does not say that. So where exactly are you getting this from ?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        So, in your view, man has no spirit. Just dust formed into flesh and breathing air. Got it.
        That's a strawman caricature. Man with the breath of God is more than that, he is a living being (i.e. a being living -- that is, a being capable of emotions, of intelligence, of physical activity, of growth and of understanding, of compassion, of mercy, of anger and of love, etc.)


        Too bad you can't have the breath of life without a spirit inhabiting.
        Where does the bible articulate such a thing ?

        Yes it does.
        Here is James 2:26 -- ὥσπερ γὰρ τὸ σῶμα χωρὶς πνεύματος νεκρόν ἐστιν, οὕτως καὶ ἡ πίστις χωρὶς ἔργων νεκρά ἐστιν.

        There are two ways of understanding the word πνεύματος in above Greek :

        (1) Contemporary English Version
        Anyone who doesn't breathe is dead, and faith that doesn't do anything is just as dead!

        (2)NET Bible
        For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

        The first is using the word πνεῦμα in the sense of simple respiration, of the human breathing process. The second is harkening back to Genesis 2:7, to before God breathed "the breath of life" into the body of man, when the body of the man was lifeless. The second ption is grammatically problematic IMHO because πνεύματος here is anarthrous whereas "the breath of life" in Genesis 2:7 is articular in the original Hebrew, נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים



        I know. It was that breath of life that created Adam's spirit. And when that breath stopped, his spirit no longer there to keep him animated and his lungs respirating.
        Where are you getting that from ?



        Ok. Metaphor then.





        Yes. My mistake there.



        No it isn't.


        Good to re-visit what a metaphor is , definition:


        A metaphor is a figure of speech that is used to make a comparison between two things that aren't alike but do have something in common. Unlike a simile, where two things are compared directly using like or as, a metaphor's comparison is more indirect, usually made by stating something is something else. A metaphor is very expressive; it is not meant to be taken literally. You may have to work a little to find the meaning in a metaphor.

        For example, a river and tears aren't very alike. One is a body of water in nature, while the other can be produced by our eyes. They do have one thing in common, though: both are a type of water that flows. A metaphor uses this similarity to help the writer make a point:

        Her tears were a river flowing down her cheeks.
        As a river is so much larger than a few tears, the metaphor is a creative way of saying that the person is crying a lot. There are so many tears that they remind the writer of a river.

        Metaphors help writers and poets make a point in a more interesting way. They also help the reader see something from a new perspective.
        -----

        The premise remains. James uses a metaphor of human death of the spirit leaving the body, as per the Jewish understanding, to compare metaphorically to faith that lacks works.
        I cannot make real sense of red above. "James" does not say in the first half of the verse, metaphorically or literally , anything about the spirit "leaving" the body, for starters.

        What we do have here though is a figurative use of a single word, namely, of the word "dead" in James 2:26 to attest to the fact that a human body without the spirit is powerless/ineffective, that is, it not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions.

        Check the following resource:

        3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.
        Last edited by Unitarian101; 12-01-2018, 02:57 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
          The text of genesis 2:7 does not say that. So where exactly are you getting this from ?
          From the Jewish sages. Like I cited earlier.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            That's a strawman caricature. Man with the breath of God is more than that, he is a living being (i.e. a being living -- that is, a being capable of emotions, of intelligence, of physical activity, of growth and of understanding, of compassion, of mercy, of anger and of love, etc.)

            Because of the spirit within us.


            Where does the bible articulate such a thing ?

            I've spent pages and pages of this thread explaining it to you. And you just handwave and obfuscate. Like Sparko, I am sticking you in my "troll" drawer and I'm done with you.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              From the Jewish sages. Like I cited earlier.
              I meant where are you getting that from the bible itself ?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Because of the spirit within us.





                I've spent pages and pages of this thread explaining it to you. And you just handwave and obfuscate. Like Sparko, I am sticking you in my "troll" drawer and I'm done with you.
                Genesis 2:7 does not say that though, that man became a living being because of “the spirit within us.” It says rather that the man became a living being as a result of God blowing “the breath of life” into his nostrils.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  Because of the spirit within us.


                  I've spent pages and pages of this thread explaining it to you. And you just handwave and obfuscate. Like Sparko, I am sticking you in my "troll" drawer and I'm done with you.
                  I don't know why he says he's asking for help considering that it is evident he already has his mind firmly made up.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I don't know why he says he's asking for help considering that it is evident he already has his mind firmly made up.
                    Unitarian isn't the OP.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      Unitarian isn't the OP.
                      Well, there's that

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • God’s intention was for Adam and Eve ( and by extension the whole of humanity) to live forever as bodily creatures. Only when Adam sin did his body began to see corruption. Had Adam never sinned he would have lived forever as is, that is, as a man with a human body & the “breath of God” in him. The concept of an indestructible human “person” (or “rational soul “) able to exist separately and outside of the human body is a pagan notion, nowhere taught in scripture.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          God’s intention was for Adam and Eve ( and by extension the whole of humanity) to live forever as bodily creatures. Only when Adam sin did his body began to see corruption. Had Adam never sinned he would have lived forever as is, that is, as a man with a human body & the “breath of God” in him. The concept of an indestructible human “person” (or “rational soul “) able to exist separately and outside of the human body is a pagan notion, nowhere taught in scripture.


                          1 Samuel 28:11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

                          “Bring up Samuel,” he said.

                          12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

                          13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

                          The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

                          14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

                          “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

                          Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

                          15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

                          Matthew 17:2-4 New International Version (NIV)
                          2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

                          Luke 24:38-40 New International Version (NIV)
                          38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

                          Revelation 6:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
                          8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

                          9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post


                            1 Samuel 28:11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

                            “Bring up Samuel,” he said.

                            12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

                            13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

                            The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

                            14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

                            “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

                            Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

                            15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

                            Matthew 17:2-4 New International Version (NIV)
                            2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

                            Luke 24:38-40 New International Version (NIV)
                            38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

                            Revelation 6:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
                            8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

                            9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
                            Let's look at the verses one at a time. Start with 1 Samuel 28:11 :

                            Saul here has a human form, he is an old man wearing a robe. Are you saying that disembodied human spirits have bodies and clothes ?

                            Comment


                            • Do you not believe in angels, Unitarian? They are rational souls without human bodies.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                                Do you not believe in angels, Unitarian? They are rational souls without human bodies.
                                What precisely do you mean by that they are “rational souls” and where does scripture say that is the case ? And how is this relevant to the definition of (human) death ?

                                Comment

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