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  • Why wait?

    A casual acquaintance of mine recently decided to become an Orthodox Christian, coming from an extremely liberal background (possibly atheism). However, she has refused to describe herself as a Christian, only as somebody in the process of conversion, even as she proceeds to go through the motions.

    I am vaguely aware that at least for awhile, the early Christians required a two year period to become a Christian.

    To me, this seems at odds with the account in Acts where the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized immediately upon hearing the gospel. Also, if Jesus could come at any time, why would one want to put off being baptized or calling oneself a Christian? (This seems especially incongruous given how widespread the belief was in the early church that baptism was an absolute requirement for salvation, but I'm thinking in terms of today.)
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    i'd assume it was to vet the person and make sure it was safe to let them into the community.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      A casual acquaintance of mine recently decided to become an Orthodox Christian, coming from an extremely liberal background (possibly atheism). However, she has refused to describe herself as a Christian, only as somebody in the process of conversion, even as she proceeds to go through the motions.

      I am vaguely aware that at least for awhile, the early Christians required a two year period to become a Christian.

      To me, this seems at odds with the account in Acts where the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized immediately upon hearing the gospel. Also, if Jesus could come at any time, why would one want to put off being baptized or calling oneself a Christian? (This seems especially incongruous given how widespread the belief was in the early church that baptism was an absolute requirement for salvation, but I'm thinking in terms of today.)
      Lots of stuff to go through here. Why the waiting period? It's to ensure that the convert understands just what he/she is converting to, because Orthodox Christians are united in practice and belief. The earliest Christians were converted Jews and proselytes, and thus didn't need so much instruction. As the church began to be persecuted, people were more cautious about sharing their faith and welcoming others in. Catechumens who were killed for their nascent faith were considered to have received baptism by blood and were honored as Christians. There was actually a period around the 4th century where people tended to wait until they thought they were dying to receive baptism because they were afraid that major sin would make their baptism null, and it couldn't be repeated.

      There are some Orthodox Christians who do not consider those outside the Church as Christian, and that could play a factor as she doesn't consider herself fully in the Church yet. However, those who die as catechumens are given Christian burial by the church.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        There was actually a period around the 4th century where people tended to wait until they thought they were dying to receive baptism because they were afraid that major sin would make their baptism null, and it couldn't be repeated.
        Was this based upon the Shepherd of Hermas teaching that there was only one repentance?
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          Was this based upon the Shepherd of Hermas teaching that there was only one repentance?
          I'm sure that was part of it. The Shepherd of Hermas was apparently quite popular in the early church. IIRC Tertullian also had a similar belief, and the Novatian schism was more or less predicated on that.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            At what point are these initiates saved? Upon becoming initiates or only after. If they die before completion, are they saved?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              A casual acquaintance of mine recently decided to become an Orthodox Christian, coming from an extremely liberal background (possibly atheism). However, she has refused to describe herself as a Christian, only as somebody in the process of conversion, even as she proceeds to go through the motions.

              I am vaguely aware that at least for awhile, the early Christians required a two year period to become a Christian.

              To me, this seems at odds with the account in Acts where the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized immediately upon hearing the gospel. Also, if Jesus could come at any time, why would one want to put off being baptized or calling oneself a Christian? (This seems especially incongruous given how widespread the belief was in the early church that baptism was an absolute requirement for salvation, but I'm thinking in terms of today.)
              Early (but not as early as foundational) Christianity did require that people be properly catechised before baptism. [nutshell] It was insurance against the (possible) incorrect proclamation of the gospel playing a part in the new church member's faith [/nutshell] OBP explains this a lot better.

              As to the refusal to self-identify as Christian - this may be because a person can't be deemed Christian prior to baptism - Perhaps according to the church's beliefs, or even perhaps according to the petitioner's beliefs.
              Last edited by tabibito; 01-09-2018, 08:14 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                At what point are these initiates saved? Upon becoming initiates or only after. If they die before completion, are they saved?
                In Orthodox belief, salvation is not a point but a process. I'd consider enrollment in the catechumenate more or less the start of that process, which isn't complete for anyone until the Final Judgment.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  In Orthodox belief, salvation is not a point but a process. I'd consider enrollment in the catechumenate more or less the start of that process, which isn't complete for anyone until the Final Judgment.
                  So if you die you don't know if you are saved or not?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    So if you die you don't know if you are saved or not?
                    As long as I don't fall away, I'm still being saved.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      As long as I don't fall away, I'm still being saved.
                      well if you are in the process of being saved, then you can't know if you will go to heaven or not if you die right now, right? Or do you mean you are saved, as long as you remain "in the process" and don't stray away?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        8 occurrences of "saved" in Romans. 1 is in aorist tense, the rest are future (including a couple that are OT citations).
                        5 occurrences of "saved" in 1 Corinthians. present, aorist, future.
                        1 occurrence in 2 Corinthians: it's a present participle - aorist participle might indicate that "saved" is completed, present is open ended.
                        No occurrences of perfect tense, which would declare the current condition as a completed action. (in the epistles listed.)
                        Kind of hard to show that "saved" is a done deal.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 01-09-2018, 10:55 AM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          well if you are in the process of being saved, then you can't know if you will go to heaven or not if you die right now, right? Or do you mean you are saved, as long as you remain "in the process" and don't stray away?
                          As long as I am in the process, I see no reason to doubt where I'll end up, but I don't take it for granted.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So, sanctification?
                            Justification = I have been saved

                            Sanctification = I am being saved

                            Glorification = I will be saved
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ephesians - 2 occurrences of "saved" - both in the perfect tense.
                              1 Thessalonians - 1 occurrence - aorist but subjunctive (might be saved)
                              2 Thessalonians - 1 occurrence - infinitive - not receive the truth to be saved.
                              1 Timothy - 2 occurrence - infinitive - God wants all to be saved. future.
                              2 Timothy - 1 occurrence - aorist participle - "did saving"
                              Titus - 1 occurrence - aorist - saved
                              1 Peter - 2 occurrences - Aorist ... strengthened form, applies to Noah and family. present
                              2 Peter - 1 occurrence - sozo is not the word here, feidomai "spared" again referring to action in the distant past
                              Jude - 1 occurrence - aorist participle referring to the time of the exodus
                              Revelation - 1 occurrence - present participle with a future referent.

                              There is just enough to make a closer examination of context advisable.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

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