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The Concept of Privilege

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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I didn't commit a genetic fallacy, to the contrary, I indicated that he may be correct.
    Yes you "committed the genetic fallacy". Otherwise why precede your acknowledgement that Zukerman “may be correct” by negatively referring to him as: “the same anti-Christian, atheist advocate Phil Zuckerman, author of Atheism and secularity, Society without God, Faith no more, and contributor to The Cambridge Companion to Atheism”?

    I'm certain much of it has to do with America's population size, stricter laws, gun control issues, and relatively complex cultural diversity, which is why I asked if Zuckerman takes into consideration Scandinavia's cultural homogeneity.
    As well as Scandinavia’s “cultural homogeneity” you also referred to “the centuries of Christian influence on those Scandinavian nations”. Whatever the reason the high level of “Christian influence” in the USA, compared to the more secular influence in other countries, including Scandinavia, hasn’t resulted in a high rating in the UN IHDI for the USA.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Yes you "committed the genetic fallacy". Otherwise why precede your acknowledgement that Zukerman “may be correct” by negatively referring to him as: “the same anti-Christian, atheist advocate Phil Zuckerman, author of Atheism and secularity, Society without God, Faith no more, and contributor to The Cambridge Companion to Atheism”?
      You don't know what the genetic fallacy is (which is probably why you yourself use it so often). The genetic fallacy is when you reject (or accept) a claim based on its origin rather than the argument being made. I haven't rejected the claim. Again, to the contrary, I indicated that he may be right.


      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      As well as Scandinavia’s “cultural homogeneity” you also referred to “the centuries of Christian influence on those Scandinavian nations”. Whatever the reason the high level of “Christian influence” in the USA, compared to the more secular influence in other countries, including Scandinavia, hasn’t resulted in a high rating in the UN IHDI for the USA.
      Ok, so no, he doesn't. Got it. That's what I thought.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I don't think that is actually what I AM saying, though, Sparko. This is not just about "giving to the less fortunate." This is about identifying and correcting systemic injustices that we have created or inherited, and that we are somewhat blind to because they are, for us, "the norm."

        So let me tell you what I think, at the risk of triggering an massive reaction from the right. Much of our nation practiced/endorsed slavery for several centuries, even before we were a nation, formally ending in the 1860s. During that era, our ancestors ripped apart a massive number of black families and destroyed a great deal of their culture. When blacks were freed from slavery in the 1860s, what followed was the era of Jim Crow, which lasted until the 1960s. In many places in our country, black people could not use the same facilities, eat in the same restaurants, or even occupy seats at the front of the bus. That was within my lifetime, and I believe probably yours. So for almost 400 years, black people were not truly permited to "get started" (yes, there were some exceptions, but they were relatively rare). Then for the next 100 years, they were theoretically allowed to "get started," but massive obstacles were thrown in their way. Finally, in the 1960s, a truer sense of "getting started" was achieved. But even if that were true universally in the U.S. (and it clearly is not), that means those of us who were born white had, culturally, a 500 year head start on "getting somewhere." Not everyone did, obviously, so we have to be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. But the black community is, in many respects, just getting started. Much has been achieved since the 1960s. Enormous progress has been made. But it's only been 60 years. If we imagine for one second that the field is level and the damages of the past undone, I think we are kidding ourselves.

        Does that mean I feel guilty? Absolutely not. I never put anyone in slavery. These are not things I did - they were done by the people that went before us. But I HAVE inherited many of the benefits of the deeds they did, and the black community has inherited many of the ills. Again, NOT universally, but widely. You cannot undo 500 years of racism in a handful of decades. The attitudes carry forward, sometimes subtly. The social structures carry forward, sometimes subtly. That does not mean all white people have benefited equally - nor does it mean all black people have been harmed equally. But the harm carries forward. So how do we address it?

        I don't think we go on a guilt trip - and I don't think we go on a pity party either. I think the best thing we can do is look for and identify those places in our culture and our societiy where we are perpetuating things that keep the playing field unequal (e.g., the resume situation, the AirB&B and Uber situation) and seek to correct them through education and awareness. I think we do NOT target programs based on race, because a racist solution does not solve a race-based problem. Instead, we target the effects. What is the effect of so many years of obstacles? One effect is that the poverty rate among black communities is significantly higher than white ones. So lets look for solutions to poverty. If we can solve THAT problem, we will help all people who need that help. We will probably help more black people than white, because the problem is more acute there. We KNOW that poverty is linked to violent crime. There is also a higher incidence of violent crime in the black community than the white. Solve poverty and I have to believe that changes too. Crime and poverty are linked to education. There is a higher incidence of under-funded and poorly staffed schools in black communities. Let's look at and solve that problem - bringing ALL schools up to a common base level. Then the needs of both white and black will be addressed.

        These are the kinds of things I am talking about. The other, more subtle things, are harder. What do you do about the constantly repeated experience of white people crossing the street out of fear of the approaching black man? Well, if crime is reduced, perhaps the perception of black people as "dangerous" that so many people have will diminish. Perhaps we need to find ways to educate and raise awareness. I frankly don't know what the answer is, but we can't even begin to look for one if people refuse to acknowledge there is even a problem. And this post is about the dynamics between two races. We see similar things in gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.

        OK - I guess I'll sit back and wait for the axes to fly...
        So since I don't treat blacks or any race differently than I do whites, exactly what would you have me do personally? If this truly isn't about calling all whites racist or blaming all whites, or wanting whites to feel guilty, then what would you have each of us do? Since I am not racist, and I don't need to feel guilty for things I can't control, or how I am treated by others (which by the way is not always so great) and everyone has different advantages and disadvantages in life, what can I do?

        ...Other than treat my fellow human beings, no matter what their race, as my neighbors? It seems to me if everyone followed the Golden Rule, then there would be no systemic racism or anything else. We would all treat people like we would want to be treated. It is something I strive to do in my life. So if everyone did that, there would be no charges of "privilege" would there?

        but please, enlighten us to a better way.
        Last edited by Sparko; 02-05-2018, 09:14 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          So since I don't treat blacks or any race differently than I do whites, exactly what would you have me do personally? If this truly isn't about calling all whites racist or blaming all whites, or wanting whites to feel guilty, then what would you have each of us do?
          I recommend doing the Project Implicit test(s) to see if your unconscious bias is a nonexistent as your conscious bias. I too felt that I did not "treat blacks different from whites." I was surprised to find that I exhibited some implicit bias when I did the test. Then I began to notice the myriad ways that, although I did not overtly treat black people differently from white, I did so internally and mentally. I was more likely to find myself if someone was "up to no good" in an "iffy" situation if they were black than white (e.g., someone "hanging out" out of view behind the local convenience store, etc). If the test shows that you, apparently like Pixie, not only have no conscious bias, but also have no unconscious bias, then I would suggest there is nothing further you can do, except perhaps encourage others to do the same. If you find you DO have some unconscious bias, then look to see how it expresses itself in your thoughts and/or actions in ways you may not previously have been aware of.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Since I am not racist, and I don't need to feel guilty for things I can't control, or how I am treated by others (which by the way is not always so great) and everyone has different advantages and disadvantages in life, what can I do?
          Even if it turns out that you have no implicit bias, you can (like me) continually have your radar up for ways in which our society/culture systemically creates unjust advantages/disadvantages. These are hard to spot, because they are often invisible to those being "advantaged" and visible only to those being "disadvantaged." Forty years ago, I would never have seen "walking down the sidewalk" as a way in which I was advantaged and others were disadvantaged. After all, I was just walking. Then, one day, I did some volunteer work at a school for children with physical challenges, and the topics of sidewalks came up. I was invited to grab a wheelchair, and attempt to get myself across the college campus where this school was housed. It wasn't until I "rolled a mile in their chair" that I became aware of this systemic unbalance.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          ...Other than treat my fellow human beings, no matter what their race, as my neighbors? It seems to me if everyone followed the Golden Rule, then there would be no systemic racism or anything else. We would all treat people like we would want to be treated. It is something I strive to do in my life. So if everyone did that, there would be no charges of "privilege" would there?

          but please, enlighten us to a better way.
          As I have noted, systemic "advantages/disadvantages" are often unvisible to those being advantaged. They have to be sought out to be found. And people have to be open to, and willing, to seek them out. What I have experienced here in response to this thread is mostly denial that such things could possibly be. One of the best things you (and others) could do is abandon this "defensive" position, and become part of the body of people keeping their eyes/ears open for instances where it manifests, and then advocating for their reversal. And I'm not talking about ridiculous things like yoga. I'm talking about meaningful things like resume screening, physical obstacles, hiring practices, etc.

          I appreciate that you are willing to ask the question you just asked. It is the question I think we should all be asking: how can I make a difference?
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            I recommend doing the Project Implicit test(s) to see if your unconscious bias is a nonexistent as your conscious bias. I too felt that I did not "treat blacks different from whites." I was surprised to find that I exhibited some implicit bias when I did the test. Then I began to notice the myriad ways that, although I did not overtly treat black people differently from white, I did so internally and mentally. I was more likely to find myself if someone was "up to no good" in an "iffy" situation if they were black than white (e.g., someone "hanging out" out of view behind the local convenience store, etc). If the test shows that you, apparently like Pixie, not only have no conscious bias, but also have no unconscious bias, then I would suggest there is nothing further you can do, except perhaps encourage others to do the same. If you find you DO have some unconscious bias, then look to see how it expresses itself in your thoughts and/or actions in ways you may not previously have been aware of.



            Even if it turns out that you have no implicit bias, you can (like me) continually have your radar up for ways in which our society/culture systemically creates unjust advantages/disadvantages. These are hard to spot, because they are often invisible to those being "advantaged" and visible only to those being "disadvantaged." Forty years ago, I would never have seen "walking down the sidewalk" as a way in which I was advantaged and others were disadvantaged. After all, I was just walking. Then, one day, I did some volunteer work at a school for children with physical challenges, and the topics of sidewalks came up. I was invited to grab a wheelchair, and attempt to get myself across the college campus where this school was housed. It wasn't until I "rolled a mile in their chair" that I became aware of this systemic unbalance.



            As I have noted, systemic "advantages/disadvantages" are often unvisible to those being advantaged. They have to be sought out to be found. And people have to be open to, and willing, to seek them out. What I have experienced here in response to this thread is mostly denial that such things could possibly be. One of the best things you (and others) could do is abandon this "defensive" position, and become part of the body of people keeping their eyes/ears open for instances where it manifests, and then advocating for their reversal. And I'm not talking about ridiculous things like yoga. I'm talking about meaningful things like resume screening, physical obstacles, hiring practices, etc.

            I appreciate that you are willing to ask the question you just asked. It is the question I think we should all be asking: how can I make a difference?
            '

            You talk a lot but don't actually say anything. Let me try again:

            WHAT CAN I DO PERSONALLY IN MY DAILY LIFE TO FIX THE PROBLEM OTHER THAN TREATING EVERYONE AS MY NEIGHBOR AND AS I WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED?


            You see, if everyone followed the Golden Rule then there would be privilege would there? So I am doing everything I can to "fix the problem" - maybe you should do the same and encourage others to do that. Because after everything you said above, you have not given one bit of a solution, other than "keep your radar up" and be aware of the "bias"

            The more you post the more it seems like you are just a passive-aggressive person who wants to blame others but when confronted you try to wiggle out of it and claim that is not what you are doing at all.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              '

              You talk a lot but don't actually say anything. Let me try again:

              WHAT CAN I DO PERSONALLY IN MY DAILY LIFE TO FIX THE PROBLEM OTHER THAN TREATING EVERYONE AS MY NEIGHBOR AND AS I WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED?


              You see, if everyone followed the Golden Rule then there would be privilege would there? So I am doing everything I can to "fix the problem" - maybe you should do the same and encourage others to do that. Because after everything you said above, you have not given one bit of a solution, other than "keep your radar up" and be aware of the "bias"

              The more you post the more it seems like you are just a passive-aggressive person who wants to blame others but when confronted you try to wiggle out of it and claim that is not what you are doing at all.
              Actually - I said a good deal. I'm not sure why you didn't find what I wrote clear. Things you can do include:
              • Take the Project Implicit test and consider its results
              • Help spread the word about the tool
              • Join in the effort to look for places where unjust advantage/disadvantage is baked into our society/culture
              • Join in the effort to change places where unjust advantage/disadvanatge are baked into our society/culture



              I do not believe that if everyone "follows the golden rule" things will magically transform because I think there are a lot of places (I've cited several examples) where the unjust advantage/disadvantage is so much the "norm" that it is essentially invisible to those most benefiting from it. I do think it is a good rule and we should all follow it. But I think there are ways in which many of us are not aware that we are not, or (if that is not true), are blind to systemic ways in which the golden rule is not being followed.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I recommend doing the Project Implicit test(s) to see if your unconscious bias is a nonexistent as your conscious bias.
                The Wikipedia article on the Implicit-association tests that Project Implicit uses suggests that those tests are highly controversial in both the scientific literature, and public square, and it's reliability is considered weak, with changes in scores based on the language people take them in (bilingual individuals score differently for the same test in different languages), the test takers mental attitude at the time, and the time of day the test was taken.

                I'm suspicious of almost all of these psych tests, but these really don't sound too impressive. Here's an interesting article in Psychology Today that talks more about IAT's faults,

                Does the Implicit Association Test (IAT) Really Measure Racial Prejudice? Probably Not.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  The Wikipedia article on the Implicit-association tests that Project Implicit uses suggests that those tests are highly controversial in both the scientific literature, and public square, and it's reliability is considered weak, with changes in scores based on the language people take them in (bilingual individuals score differently for the same test in different languages), the test takers mental attitude at the time, and the time of day the test was taken.

                  I'm suspicious of almost all of these psych tests, but these really don't sound too impressive. Here's an interesting article in Psychology Today that talks more about IAT's faults,

                  Does the Implicit Association Test (IAT) Really Measure Racial Prejudice? Probably Not.
                  I have already read the article. I am not arguing that the test predicts associations between bias and action (it doesn't) or that it is error free (it actually suffers from a repeatability issue, much like the Myers Briggs personality profile). It can be affected by mood, context, and several other factors. These are things I did not realize until someone gave me the links to the two articles, one of which you just provided again.

                  Personally, I do not think this reality robs it of all value as a way of attempting to assess ourselves. I took the test, came out with a "mild bias," and began looking for ways in which that might be true. I found them fairly easily. Lacking a formal, verified mechanism for measuring implicit bias, right now it is the best we have. If nothing else, it gets us asking the questions.

                  My perspective, of course. Take it for what it's worth.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Actually - I said a good deal. I'm not sure why you didn't find what I wrote clear. Things you can do include:
                    • Take the Project Implicit test and consider its results
                    • Help spread the word about the tool
                    • Join in the effort to look for places where unjust advantage/disadvantage is baked into our society/culture
                    • Join in the effort to change places where unjust advantage/disadvanatge are baked into our society/culture
                    1. Don't need to because I already make it a point to treat everyone like I would like to be treated.
                    2. pointless.
                    3. You want me to just look for racism? Didn't you already say that this is nothing we are guilty of personally and that it isn't about the "less fortunate"?
                    4. I already am doing what I can by treating others as I would like to be treated.


                    I do not believe that if everyone "follows the golden rule" things will magically transform because I think there are a lot of places (I've cited several examples) where the unjust advantage/disadvantage is so much the "norm" that it is essentially invisible to those most benefiting from it. I do think it is a good rule and we should all follow it. But I think there are ways in which many of us are not aware that we are not, or (if that is not true), are blind to systemic ways in which the golden rule is not being followed.
                    Your idea of privilege is no nebulous as to have no meaning. If we all treat everyone like we would like to be treated there would be no racism or privilege. So by doing that and encouraging you and others to do the same, I am doing what I can to solve the problem - you seem to be only interesting in blame and pointing out there is a problem. Which translates into guilt.

                    I have no guilt. If I treat others as my equals and neighbors then I am not perpetuating any privilege and if everyone did the same there would be no problem.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      1. Don't need to because I already make it a point to treat everyone like I would like to be treated.
                      2. pointless.
                      3. You want me to just look for racism? Didn't you already say that this is nothing we are guilty of personally and that it isn't about the "less fortunate"?
                      4. I already am doing what I can by treating others as I would like to be treated.




                      Your idea of privilege is no nebulous as to have no meaning. If we all treat everyone like we would like to be treated there would be no racism or privilege. So by doing that and encouraging you and others to do the same, I am doing what I can to solve the problem - you seem to be only interesting in blame and pointing out there is a problem. Which translates into guilt.

                      I have no guilt. If I treat others as my equals and neighbors then I am not perpetuating any privilege and if everyone did the same there would be no problem.
                      As you wish, Sparko. Personally, I prefer looking for the ways in which I am unconsciously acting inconsistently with my conscious moral guidelines. Not doing so leaves me prone to having a "blind spot" I'd rather not have.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        1. Don't need to because I already make it a point to treat everyone like I would like to be treated.
                        2. pointless.
                        3. You want me to just look for racism? Didn't you already say that this is nothing we are guilty of personally and that it isn't about the "less fortunate"?
                        4. I already am doing what I can by treating others as I would like to be treated.




                        Your idea of privilege is no nebulous as to have no meaning. If we all treat everyone like we would like to be treated there would be no racism or privilege. So by doing that and encouraging you and others to do the same, I am doing what I can to solve the problem - you seem to be only interesting in blame and pointing out there is a problem. Which translates into guilt.

                        I have no guilt. If I treat others as my equals and neighbors then I am not perpetuating any privilege and if everyone did the same there would be no problem.
                        PS, Carpe, I started talking about the Golden Rule as a way to give you some terminology to reach the conservative Christian rather than using the loaded liberal term "white privilege" because you said you were not interested in blame and guilt and were only interested in making the "privilege" go away by having everyone treated equally. The more you argue with me, the more I am thinking that Mountain Man and Darth E are correct and that you actually do only care about blame and guilt

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          As you wish, Sparko. Personally, I prefer looking for the ways in which I am unconsciously acting inconsistently with my conscious moral guidelines. Not doing so leaves me prone to having a "blind spot" I'd rather not have.
                          And when you find it what do you do about it?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            And when you find it what do you do about it?
                            I look for ways I can practice altering the internal or external dynamic. However, I cannot do that if I do not actualy do the work to find any possible unconscious biases.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I look for ways I can practice altering the internal or external dynamic. However, I cannot do that if I do not actualy do the work to find any possible unconscious biases.
                              Don't give me liberal jargon, tell me what you do.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Don't give me liberal jargon, tell me what you do.
                                I'm not. That's what I do. I use tools like Project Implicit to help me ferret out bias. I engage in discussions with friends and family about implicit bias. If/when I find it, I look for things in my experience where it manifests (e.g., my differing internal reaction to people behnd the convience store). Then I have to practice changing that reaction (e.g., reminding myself, when I have it that I'm responding out of that bias place).

                                You know, for someone who describes himself as "moderate" or "centrist," you seem to have a significant bee in your bonnet about "liberals," which you do not seem to have about conservatives. Maybe your "implicit bias" is not about races, but is about political dispositions? Just a thought. I know I struggle with this one. I tend to have a negative view of "liberals" with respect to fiscal issues, and a negative view of conservatives with respect to social issues. I continually have to remind myself "they're not the enemy."
                                Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-05-2018, 11:34 AM.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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