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A Civil Abortion Discussion

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  • #16
    Originally posted by guacamole View Post
    Here's a modest start to reduce some abortions and to help more people do the right thing. Let's start pushing for a nationwide initiative to reduce the cost of adoptions:

    From Planning for Adoption: Knowing the Costs and Resources.

    Private agency adoptions conducted outside the public
    child welfare system vary widely in costs based on the
    agency used and the individual adoption circumstances
    but may range from $20,000 to $45,000. Overall costs may
    include the home study, court and legal fees, preadoption
    and postadoption counseling for birth parents, birth
    parent medical and legal expenses, adoptive parent
    preparation and training, social work services needed to
    match a child with a prospective family, interim care for a
    child, and postplacement supervision until the adoption is
    finalized.


    Additionally, making the system run a bit smoother, with fewer pauses and delays, might save some lives.

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    Our local pregnancy center is very much into adoption referrals, and we have our own pro bono family practice attorney. She is incredibly frustrated with how a "slam dunk" adoption can be complicated by the courts. A case where the girl is willing to give up her baby, nobody is contesting, the adopting parents are a fine upstanding couple -- no conceivable reason not to proceed. In our case, it's often Child Protective Services that gets involved, and it's like they forget that their obligation is to THE CHILD, not the process.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      The person getting an abortion isn't thinking on the debate when life begins. That issue was likely answered in school by the pro-abortion tone.

      The way to teach (at the last moment) that you have a person being aborted is through the sonogram.

      How do we get past the socio-political motives of people who are most interested in the political gains and societal changes obtained by promotion of abortion? There may be a small number of people who are concerned about the starting point of life, but mostly the pro-abortion is about sacrificing a baby for promotion of social change.
      Last edited by mikewhitney; 05-16-2019, 10:07 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Access to better medical care has resulted in the lowest rates of unintended pregnancies and abortions since the 1970's. If pro-lifers are truly concerned about the abortion rate they should concern themselves with womens access to medical care such as planned parenthood.
        How does access to medical care reduce abortions? The pregnancy doesn't start at the medical care facilities.

        Comment


        • #19
          In light of your statement here, Carpe...

          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          OK - I'm going to give this a shot - in a new thread with a clean start. My request, if you are going to join this discussion, is that it be kept civil and respectful. That means no name calling, no insults, and no taunting emojis. I'd also like to request that people leave the hyperbolic language that both sides tend to use about this topic "at the door." No "Big Abortion," no "abortion mills," no accusations of misogyny or religious fanaticism.
          I'll politely and humbly offer that this statement...

          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          If pro-lifers are truly concerned about the abortion rate they should concern themselves with womens access to medical care such as planned parenthood.
          ...is unnecessarily argumentative and insulting. Many of us "pro-lifers" are, indeed, very much involved in women's health, and the suggestion that the largest abortion provider in the world should be the solution is rather polarizing.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            ITT, pro-lifers complaining that people supporting/getting an abortion don't believe it's a human life.

            We get it. Some of us were hoping to discuss other possible solutions.
            "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
            Hear my cry, hear my shout,
            Save me, save me"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by guacamole View Post
              ITT, pro-lifers complaining that people supporting/getting an abortion don't believe it's a human life.

              We get it. Some of us were hoping to discuss other possible solutions.
              Unfortunately, any "solution" that ignore the obvious will always be one-sided at best simply because the other side will never agree with the premise that there's a problem to be solved.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Perhaps a large part of the problem is that "one side" has allowed - even championed - Planned Parenthood to be the face of "choice", and there appears to be no effort on their part for neutrality on the "choice".

                As long as one side recognizes Planned Parenthood as "the authority" on "choice", the battle lines remain fixed.

                Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?
                Battle lines only remain "fixed" if we permit them to be "fixed." As my Dad used to day, "it takes two to tango."

                Change the discussion, and you will change the battle lines.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  This just isn't true. Like RvW, the current debate isn't when "life begins", it's when that life becomes a "person". You need to modify your argument to reflect that.
                  Actually - that's a good catch. So the modified starting place is:

                  1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
                  2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
                  3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Battle lines only remain "fixed" if we permit them to be "fixed." As my Dad used to day, "it takes two to tango."

                    Change the discussion, and you will change the battle lines.
                    But how does one move from a fixed position that the baby is a person, and that any discussion of abortion MUST start with that premise? Do we just concede that in some cases it isn't? That's simply not tenable.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      I think any "solution" that ignores the elephant in the room -- that abortion always terminates a human life -- is going to have limited and temporary success.
                      You have not said - do you agree with the three points:

                      1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
                      2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
                      3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        The person getting an abortion isn't thinking on the debate when life begins. That issue was likely answered in school by the pro-abortion tone.

                        The way to teach (at the last moment) that you have a person being aborted is through the sonogram.

                        How do we get past the socio-political motives of people who are most interested in the political gains and societal changes obtained by promotion of abortion? There may be a small number of people who are concerned about the starting point of life, but mostly the pro-abortion is about sacrificing a baby for promotion of social change.
                        Do you agree with my first three observations?

                        To repeat:

                        1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
                        2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
                        3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          In light of your statement here, Carpe...

                          I'll politely and humbly offer that this statement...

                          ...is unnecessarily argumentative and insulting. Many of us "pro-lifers" are, indeed, very much involved in women's health, and the suggestion that the largest abortion provider in the world should be the solution is rather polarizing.
                          OK - I can set the table, and ask that people refrain from emojis and taunts - and leave hyperbolic language at the door. Getting into prohibiting people from making statements about things that should happen, whether or not I agree with them, is more "politically correct police" than I want to get.

                          Yes - I wish people would stand back from the battle long enough to look at the meta issue - but that is almost impossible to do. Post after post, people simply seem to want to get back into the fray and start flailing away with the same kinds of arguments that have been failing now for 50+ years - on both sides. I'm trying to get people to step back, even if for a second, and see the futility of that energy use, and ask themselves, "can we approach this differently?"

                          In other words - I'm not trying to have a discussion about abortion itself. I'm trying to have a discussion about how we approach the abortion issue - how we engage in the discussion.

                          Maybe my thread title is misleading?Can you change it to "A Civil Discussion about the "Great Abortion War" ?
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Unfortunately, any "solution" that ignore the obvious will always be one-sided at best simply because the other side will never agree with the premise that there's a problem to be solved.
                            Then redefine the problem.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              But how does one move from a fixed position that the baby is a person, and that any discussion of abortion MUST start with that premise? Do we just concede that in some cases it isn't? That's simply not tenable.
                              If you agree with my three points...the logical conclusion is that either side continuing in the effort to get the other side to accept their definition of "when a human person begins" will have zero effect on the abortion situation.

                              Would you agree that is a natural, logical conclusion from those three points?
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Unfortunately, any "solution" that ignore the obvious will always be one-sided at best simply because the other side will never agree with the premise that there's a problem to be solved.
                                Great. End of thread. Bye now.
                                "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                                Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                                Save me, save me"

                                Comment

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