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Donald Trump and the Coronavirus

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  • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    We all believe it was goofy, and of course he has since nullified it without ever saying he misspoke.

    I *would* like him to direct the DOJ to evaluate all the mandated (as opposed to recommended) lockdowns for civil rights violations, and prosecute all governors and mayors who have overstepped.
    Goofy? Norrin, Trump has - on multiple occasions - claimed that the Constitution gives him authority to "do anything he wants." He has never, to my knowledge, retracted this position. And he didn't "nullify" his comments, AFAIK; he simply shifted it to variations on "I'm going to give them permission."
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Ummm...no. I have never made that argument. This is a marvelous example of people adding to what I have said.

      Some truths are relative (e.g., I am hungry). Some truths are (presumably) universal (e.g., first law of thermodynamics). Some truths are absolute (e.g., a statement cannot be true and untrue in the same way at the same time).
      "I've never argued that truth is relative, I've only argued that some truths are relative!"

      Yeah, okay, carpe.

      I've debated you more than enough to know that what you happen to consider a "relative truth" changes like the wind depending on what you want to believe is true at any given moment. Also, "I am hungry" is not a relative truth. Either you're hungry, or you're not.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
        I'm going to ignore those "details" because they're complete garbage. Germany has less confirmed cases and less deaths than the US both per capita and overall. Nor has Germany had a spike in cases*.


        *They have had a 'spike' in deaths over the last two days, but so has the US.
        Sweety, Germany is catching up, to the rest of Europe. As of now, Germany is a bit better in per million cases and deaths, but is catching up.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          "I've never argued that truth is relative, I've only argued that some truths are relative!"

          Yeah, okay, carpe.

          I've debated you more than enough to know that what you happen to consider a "relative truth" changes like the wind depending on what you want to believe is true at any given moment. Also, "I am hungry" is not a relative truth. Either you're hungry, or you're not.
          Are you unable to see the differences between "the truth is relative," (implying all truths are relative) and "some truths are relative," (implying that there are other kinds of truth?) Seriously?

          Or are you suggesting there are no relative truths? If you are, that is preposterous. The statement "I am hungry" is only true relative to a given person at a given time in a given place. Change any of those factors and the statement "I am hungry" can shift from "true" to "untrue."

          If you disagree - make your case. I submit you will not be able to make the statement "I am hungry" or "Fred is hungry" absolutely and universally true without nailing it down to a place and time - making it relative to that place and time. And your statement about "I am hungry" confuses the value of the statement with the observation that it cannot be both true and untrue in the same way and at the same time. I have never argued that the law of noncontradiction does not apply. I have argued that some statements truth value is relative to circumstance. "I am hungry" is one of those statements. It can be true at one time/place for one person and false at another time/place or for another person. It is relative to time/place/person. It has no determinant truth value until that is specified and can change when that specification changes.

          The law of noncontradiction cannot.
          Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-16-2020, 08:33 AM.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Are you unable to see the differences between "the truth is relative," (implying all truths are relative) and "some truths are relative," (implying that there are other kinds of truth?) Seriously?

            Or are you suggesting there are no relative truths? If you are, that is preposterous. The statement "I am hungry" is only true relative to a given person at a given time in a given place. Change any of those factors and the statement "I am hungry" can shift from "true" to "untrue."

            If you disagree - make your case. I submit you will not be able to make the statement "I am hungry" or "Fred is hungry" absolutely and universally true without nailing it down to a place and time - making it relative to that place and time.
            Hmmm, you must really hate Christians, expecting them to place the talking points and bumper sticker slogans into real life contexts. (yes that is sarcastic, but uses the actual points made by Christian posters here. )

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I have actually noted that other countries are also failing to handle the outbreak well multiple times.
              Yet, for some strange reason, you seem less willing to critique them, even when many of them are doing worse, in both per million infections and deaths. Hummm, interesting...

              You can ignore them if you wish. Germany has indeed had a spike, but continues to manage the outbreak in a fashion superior to ours. You can see that in their (naive) death rate, which is now 2.8% (and climbing) while ours is at 4.4% (and climbing). They also have a lower cases per million, lower deaths per million, and their testing per million is double ours.
              And you missed the point (as always). They are catching up and not doing a whole lot better. We’ll ignore that though so you can feel better about it, k?

              Anyone who can look at the data and say "the U.S. is doing just fine" is (intentionally?) blind to the data.
              Compared to the rest of the west, we’re doing just fine. I await your criticism of the ones doing the same or worse... I’m sure it will come any minute now...
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                The raw data suggest it’s spreading all over the world and has infected more in Germany than the US and Germany recently had a spike, in cases. That can’t be used to blame Trump, so we’ll ignore those details.
                I'm going to ignore those "details" because they're complete garbage. Germany has less confirmed cases and less deaths than the US both per capita and overall. Nor has Germany had a spike in cases*.
                Sweety, Germany is catching up, to the rest of Europe. As of now, Germany is a bit better in per million cases and deaths, but is catching up.
                So the virus has not "infected more in Germany than the US". You made that up.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  Yet, for some strange reason, you seem less willing to critique them, even when many of them are doing worse, in both per million infections and deaths. Hummm, interesting...



                  And you missed the point (as always). They are catching up and not doing a whole lot better. We’ll ignore that though so you can feel better about it, k?



                  Compared to the rest of the west, we’re doing just fine. I await your criticism of the ones doing the same or worse... I’m sure it will come any minute now...
                  So we are doing just fine, compared to the rest of the west! Is that what is to be expected for the richest nation in the world? The hospitals in the cities are more than hectic, and nursing homes are close to collapsing, all the old rules have been discarded.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    So the virus has not "infected more in Germany than the US". You made that up.
                    Or....

                    The numbers changed between when I posted and now, but we can’t have that now.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                      So we are doing just fine, compared to the rest of the west! Is that what is to be expected for the richest nation in the world? The hospitals in the cities are more than hectic, and nursing homes are close to collapsing, all the old rules have been discarded.
                      Things around the Midwest is pretty quiet. Of course, the US being the third biggest country, in the world, doesn’t process I guess.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Yet, for some strange reason, you seem less willing to critique them, even when many of them are doing worse, in both per million infections and deaths. Hummm, interesting...
                        I don't live there. I note they are not handling things well, and focus on the place where I live. That has more direct impact on my day-to-day life.

                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        And you missed the point (as always). They are catching up and not doing a whole lot better. We’ll ignore that though so you can feel better about it, k?
                        Umm...no. The data does not support "they are catching up." For most of them, their curve is shallower than ours, which means the gap is widening, assuming you are talking about the countries doing worse than us.

                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Compared to the rest of the west, we’re doing just fine. I await your criticism of the ones doing the same or worse... I’m sure it will come any minute now...
                        We are performing slightly better than seven developed western nations. Unlike you, however, I don't limit my vision to just the nations I can point to that are having a harder go of it. Furthermore, while some of their "harder time" is due to mismanagement (like ours), they also have higher population densities than the U.S. while having the same (or slightly less) percentage of their population in urban centers. Basic epidemiology: pandemics move faster through densely populated areas than sparsely populated ones.

                        There is no question that U.S. leadership is failing us, especially at the federal level. But it's understandable. You need to devote time to getting your name on stimulus checks, evaluating your ratings, and holding campaign rallies in the guise of press briefings. After all, getting re-elected is everything. We wouldn't actually want to be doing something about coordinating resources between states, ensuring adequate supplies of critical resources, and implementing national stay-at-home policies to control the spread of a pandemic. And yes - this paragraph is largely sarcastic.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Or....

                          The numbers changed between when I posted and now, but we can’t have that now.
                          You think the numbers changed that dramatically between 8:50 PM on 4/15 (when you posted that claim about Germany) and 9:40 AM on 4/16, when Roy made his post?

                          Sorry, Pix - I've been tracking the numbers. Your statement was wrong when you made it....
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            Or....

                            The numbers changed between when I posted and now, but we can’t have that now.
                            No, because that's not true either. Germany also had less confirmed cases and less deaths than the US both per capita and overall when you posted and beforehand. And even if the numbers had changed in that way, your revised claim would be untrue, because it would mean Germany wasn't catching up with US numbers, but falling behind.

                            Any other excuses you want to try before you shift to blatant lying?
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I don't live there. I note they are not handling things well, and focus on the place where I live. That has more direct impact on my day-to-day life.
                              And by that logic, what is going on in New England, has little bearing on me, living over 1000 miles away (where most of the US is doing better than Germany). Our local news is more focused on local crime, unemployment, and the major impact small business have taken, than on China Flu deaths and hospitalizations because there’s only a few hundred cases, in the entire city. Believe it or not, an entire place exist between the east and west coast.

                              Umm...no. The data does not support "they are catching up." For most of them, their curve is shallower than ours, which means the gap is widening, assuming you are talking about the countries doing worse than us.
                              I check it, several times a day and have seen, for myself, the gap closing.

                              We are performing slightly better than seven developed western nations. Unlike you, however, I don't limit my vision to just the nations I can point to that are having a harder go of it. Furthermore, while some of their "harder time" is due to mismanagement (like ours), they also have higher population densities than the U.S. while having the same (or slightly less) percentage of their population in urban centers. Basic epidemiology: pandemics move faster through densely populated areas than sparsely populated ones.
                              You’re ignoring the fact, most of our problems, are too located in higher density areas and we have more total high density areas, than many other countries do. Things are pretty quiet here in the Midwest, where most of our outbreaks are measured in the dozens, not thousands. As I said, our local news mentions little about China Flu deaths and infections because there isn’t that many around here. You do understand there’s areas between the coast. Do you?

                              There is no question that U.S. leadership is failing us, especially at the federal level. But it's understandable. You need to devote time to getting your name on stimulus checks, evaluating your ratings, and holding campaign rallies in the guise of press briefings. After all, getting re-elected is everything. We wouldn't actually want to be doing something about coordinating resources between states, ensuring adequate supplies of critical resources, and implementing national stay-at-home policies to control the spread of a pandemic. And yes - this paragraph is largely sarcastic.
                              Things are just fine here. Maybe you should figure out that the entire country doesn’t revolve around NYC.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                No, because that's not true either. Germany also had less confirmed cases and less deaths than the US both per capita and overall when you posted and beforehand. And even if the numbers had changed in that way, your revised claim would be untrue, because it would mean Germany wasn't catching up with US numbers, but falling behind.

                                Any other excuses you want to try before you shift to blatant lying?
                                The liar accuses me of lying, how funny!
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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