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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Non-theistic Moral Realism

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    That is nonsense, the values of the Communist or Muslim are just as instinctive.
    And so was Moses' slaughter, rape and pillaging of neighbouring tribes. But we're are rising above primitive tribalism and national ideologies. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights reflects the instinctive values and ideals of humanity beyond mere tribalism and has gained the force of International Law. It overrides the tribal/ideological/sectarian interests of individual nations or religions.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      That only works if you redefine free will to mean that we can freely act according to our nature without external influence (the ability to do otherwise is not included). But heck my dog can do that, so I guess by your lights my Aussie has free will.
      LFW is logically incoherent because it does not allow for the effect of antecedent conditions impacting upon every decision and event and that one's decisions arise from a vacuum. OTOH Compatibilism argues that ‘free will’ and ‘determinism’ are compatible, and that it is possible to have both, to a greater or lesser degree, without being logically inconsistent. This is not my position, I'm a hard determinist, but it's what you're actually arguing whilst erroneously calling it LFW.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        LFW is logically incoherent because it does not allow for the effect of antecedent conditions impacting upon every decision and event and that one's decisions arise from a vacuum. OTOH Compatibilism argues that ‘free will’ and ‘determinism’ are compatible, and that it is possible to have both, to a greater or lesser degree, without being logically inconsistent. This is not my position, I'm a hard determinist, but it's what you're actually arguing whilst erroneously calling it LFW.
        I agree the argument is in your favor, the physics argument, but I don't see how there could exist any notion of free will at all with respect to determinism, strict determinism, I have to agree with seer on that one, if strict determinism is true, then we are nothing but robots, not responsible for our actions. We would make choices of course, but each and every one of those choices would be determined as well, determined before we even leave the womb. I'd like to believe that isn't true, but I have no argument to mount against it.

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        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          I agree the argument is in your favor, the physics argument, but I don't see how there could exist any notion of free will at all with respect to determinism, strict determinism, I have to agree with seer on that one, if strict determinism is true, then we are nothing but robots, not responsible for our actions. We would make choices of course, but each and every one of those choices would be determined as well, determined before we even leave the womb. I'd like to believe that isn't true, but I have no argument to mount against it.
          Natural selection has programmed us to assume agency where there is only nature...hence, we have the illusion of free-will. This is all “free-will” can actually mean. Acting as if we possess it, whilst acknowledging that we don’t in actuality, is the only possible means to acquire knowledge and exercise moral judgements based on seemingly “freely-chosen” motives.

          As for being "responsible for our actions", we are responsible for them inasmuch as we’re genetically programmed to respond to the social mores of the community. And if we don’t, we are removed from the social unit. This enables the survival of the family and community...and the human species.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            . . . so are Jewish and Christian.
            No Shuny, I don't hold determinism, I don't believe we are slaves to instincts as Tass does.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Compatibilism argues that ‘free will’ and ‘determinism’ are compatible, and that it is possible to have both, to a greater or lesser degree, without being logically inconsistent.
              Like I said it only works if you redefine free will, and by the definition of Compatibilism (free to act according to our nature) my dog would have free will. Tass, do you believe my Aussie has free will, in any real sense?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                And so was Moses' slaughter, rape and pillaging of neighbouring tribes. But we're are rising above primitive tribalism and national ideologies. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights reflects the instinctive values and ideals of humanity beyond mere tribalism and has gained the force of International Law. It overrides the tribal/ideological/sectarian interests of individual nations or religions.
                Again nonsense, no matter what Moses did or what the Muslims do now or the Communist or in the future it is all instinctive in your world. And Islam does not give a hoot about your International Law, so that law overrides nothing. And Islam will surpass Christianity in a few years and may demographically dominate Europe in a few generations. Just remember if the world slips under Islamic rule it was all instinctive.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  No Shuny, I don't hold determinism, I don't believe we are slaves to instincts as Tass does.
                  Determinism doe not translate to slavery to instincts. I do prefer compatibilism.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Determinism doe not translate to slavery to instincts. I do prefer compatibilism.
                    Yes determinism does make you a slave to instincts and antecedent conditions and compatibilism does not deny determinism. You just have redefined free will.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Yes determinism does make you a slave to instincts and antecedent conditions and compatibilism does not deny determinism. You just have redefined free will.
                      Disagree as previously explained.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Disagree as previously explained.
                        You can disagree all you want, you are still wrong - how can you be free but still determined?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Like I said it only works if you redefine free will, and by the definition of Compatibilism (free to act according to our nature) my dog would have free will. Tass, do you believe my Aussie has free will, in any real sense?
                          It seems that even you don't believe that your dog has free will, (I wonder why,) and yet your dog has no idea that his choices are determined, that they are not really choices at all, in our normal sense of the words meaning. So what makes you think you're any different, why should it be that you have free will, but your dog, "no thats just silly" doesn't. The only difference between you and your dog is that you can wonder about that, wonder about whether you are a robot or not, and your dog can not, nor does he/she care.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            The only difference between you and your dog is that you can wonder about that, wonder about whether you are a robot or not, and your dog can not, nor does he/she care.
                            And since I can wonder about that and do I care, perhaps I can then act - even against my desires and instincts.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              And since I can wonder about that and do I care, perhaps I can then act - even against my desires and instincts.
                              Well you could, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that your ability to wonder, to care, or to act, makes that wondering, that caring, or those actions any less determined. Perhaps you are right, perhaps we have free will, I would like to think so, but the stronger argument, really the only argument, suggests that you are wrong.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                You can disagree all you want, you are still wrong - how can you be free but still determined?
                                The range of choices are there, but limited by perdetermined factors, which is the reality of human existence. Desires and instincts, are not the only things that limit our decision making process, but they indeed limit the rang of our potential range of decisions.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-20-2017, 11:04 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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