(Lighter thread): Who should re-open first, churches or AA meetings?

[DivineOb]

So why bold the part you want, and ignore the part I want? Let's try my version....

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Everybody likes to throw "the establishment clause" around, but ignore the "prohibition clause".

I am not a Constitutional Scholar. My understanding is that the restriction is against singling our particular belief (or nonbelief) for special treatment / punishment. It isn't to say that the right to practice one's religion trumps all other considerations at all times and places.

Is that your understanding?

[Cow Poke]

I am not a Constitutional Scholar. My understanding is that the restriction is against singling our particular belief (or nonbelief) for special treatment / punishment.

Is that your understanding?

Not at all - "religious liberty" is religious liberty - period. And, again, the other examples I have involved commerce, not just "free speech" as in "the right to assemble peaceably".

It isn't to say that the right to practice one's religion trumps all other considerations at all times and places.

sorry for pulling that one out of order, but wanted to address it separately. Religion does not trump all other considerations at all times and places. There simply has to be an awfully compelling reason to violate the "separation" principle.

[JimL]

The Navaho reservation has the highest covid outbreak in the country. It was traced back to a religeous ceremony, aka church.

[Cow Poke]

The Navaho reservation has the highest covid outbreak in the country. It was traced back to a religeous ceremony, aka church.

No, it wasn't church. It was a combination of other health risks, lack of running water, cultural difficulties, comorbidities, or pre-existing conditions. They are incredible susceptible to such pandemics.

[Cow Poke]

The Navaho reservation has the highest covid outbreak in the country. It was traced back to a religeous ceremony, aka church.

You're so full of crap on this one, Jim - this is a cheap shot even for you. Besides reasons I've already listed, they're simply not complying with instructions...

'I'm pretty frustrated': Navajo Nation president plans 6th weekend curfew amid case spike



This is why your credibility is in the sewer, Jim -- you just make crap up, which is why you almost never cite sources.

[JimL]

No, it wasn't church. It was a combination of other health risks, lack of running water, cultural difficulties, comorbidities, or pre-existing conditions. They are incredible susceptible to such pandemics.

What I said CP, was that the first case was traced back to the church. I didn't mention the bad conditions that could contribute to the fast spread of the virus. You're in such a hurry to prove me wrong that you're not actually reading what i actually said.

http://durangoherald.com/articles/324625

[Cow Poke]

What I said CP, was that the first case was traced back to the church. I didn't mention the bad conditions that could contribute to the fast spread of the virus. You're in such a hurry to prove me wrong that you're not actually reading what i actually said.

http://durangoherald.com/articles/324625

That particular instance --- perhaps you're unaware how vast the Navajo Nation is. You're such an anti-Christian bigot you'll do anything to blame this on religion

But I DID force you to provide a cite!!! That's rare.

[JimL]

That particular instance --- perhaps you're unaware how vast the Navajo Nation is. You're such an anti-Christian bigot you'll do anything to blame this on religion

But I DID force you to provide a cite!!! That's rare.

I know, I knew what you were up to, you made me do it. And I wasn't happy about it either.

[Cow Poke]

I know, I knew what you were up to, you made me do it. And I wasn't happy about it either.

OK, so now I feel bad.

[DivineOb]

Not at all - "religious liberty" is religious liberty - period. And, again, the other examples I have involved commerce, not just "free speech" as in "the right to assemble peaceably".



sorry for pulling that one out of order, but wanted to address it separately. Religion does not trump all other considerations at all times and places. There simply has to be an awfully compelling reason to violate the "separation" principle.

FWIW, the Wikipedia article on the free exercise clause indicates that the "compelling interest" threshold has been relaxed in recent decades.



I don't know enough on this subject to really discuss much further. To me it seems like the lockdown restrictions could easily pass the "compelling interest" threshold in any case.

[Cow Poke]

FWIW, the Wikipedia article on the free exercise clause indicates that the "compelling interest" threshold has been relaxed in recent decades.



I don't know enough on this subject to really discuss much further. To me it seems like the lockdown restrictions could easily pass the "compelling interest" threshold in any case.

Well, we'll find out soon, because arrests have been made and trials will be had. And many states have enacted Religious Liberty Restoration Statutes.

[rogue06]

Right there in the first amendment, Jim -- "of prohibiting the free exercise thereof" -- no exceptions there at all.



I think what you are missing is the fact that the things I mentioned are engaged in commerce, which most certainly can be taxed, limited, regulated... The free exercise of religion is not the same as commerce, which can be regulated.

Nobody could get him to understand this during discussions concerning the Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission case and I doubt that will change now.

Your arguing with a wall.

[JimL]

Nobody could get him to understand this during discussions concerning the Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission case and I doubt that will change now.

Your arguing with a wall.

So long as the churches are not targeted gentlemen, so long as the ban does not apply to churches alone, and it is a temporary ban in the interests of public safety, in other words so long as the law is neutral, it is perfectly legal to ban church services. I don't have the time or patience to actually find the case law for you, but if you are actually interested i'm sure you can fact check for yourselves.

Here is a friendly conservative site to enlighten you, Mr. Wall. The ACLJ headed by the Presidents own council no less, Jay Sekulow.

aclj.org/religious-liberty/can-the-government-close-churches-in-response-to-an-epidemic

[DivineOb]

Nobody could get him to understand this during discussions concerning the Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission case and I doubt that will change now.

Your arguing with a wall.

Rogue,

If you're talking about the case I'm thinking of I happen to agree with the Supreme Court in that case. Sheesh.

[Cow Poke]

So long as the churches are not targeted gentlemen, so long as the ban does not apply to churches alone, and it is a temporary ban in the interests of public safety, in other words so long as the law is neutral, it is perfectly legal to ban church services.

Woah, it's been a while since the manure spreader malfunctioned and threw the whole load all at once!

I don't have the time or patience to actually find the case law for you,

Good, cause it ain't there!

but if you are actually interested i'm sure you can fact check for yourselves.

A tacit admission if ever there was one.

Here is a friendly conservative site to enlighten you, Mr. Wall. The ACLJ headed by the Presidents own council no less, Jay Sekulow.

aclj.org/religious-liberty/can-the-government-close-churches-in-response-to-an-epidemic

NOWHERE in that article does brother Jay support your goofy notion that "it is perfectly legal to ban church services". You might wanna take off your anti-Christian Bias glasses and read it again.