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Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Especially when dealing with "mean drunks" who are prone to say things for no other reason than to be nasty and hurtful.
    Had a coworker once tell me that being drunk allows you to be who you really are, and I said that who I really am is who I am with all of my inhibitions and rationality intact.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      MM .... stop before you dig the hole you've dug for yourself any deeper ... K?
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seanD View Post
        He wasn't innocently jogging through the neighborhood lol. This is why we can't have nice things because people like you lie or exaggerate the narrative. The sad part is that the MSM plays off these false narratives to stoke racial and political tension for clicks. I"m not sure why YOU do it though.
        All indications are he was innocently jogging through the neighborhood. He did it regularly. The only possible fact that could call that into question is the stop at the house under construction. It was a short stop, he was never seen taking anything, and indications are it was to get water.

        What I dont get is why you buy into the narratives that try to give some justification to the shooters.
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-06-2020, 07:50 AM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Yes, he was innocently jogging through the neighborhood. He did it regularly. What I dont get is why you buy into the narratives that try to give some justification to the shooters.
          He was seen trespassing. That makes him not innocent by definition and it's what attracted the attention of the McMichaels. That doesn't justify Arbery being killed, but it does dispense with the false "jogging while black" narrative that has built up around this incident.

          Now if it's proven that the McMichaels' actions prior to the shooting were illegal then according to Georgia law, as I understand it, they may be on the hook for life in prison even if it wasn't their intent to kill Arbery. But since the prosecution is going for a murder conviction, they may have made their job harder, because I'm not convinced that it was their intent to kill Arbery and that the decision, if it was even a decision at all, was made in the heat of the moment as Arbery tried to wrestle the gun away. I'm thinking manslaughter would have been easier to prove, but I suppose it's up to the jury to decide.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Had a coworker once tell me that being drunk allows you to be who you really are, and I said that who I really am is who I am with all of my inhibitions and rationality intact.
            Disagree. Who you really are also includes your decisions not to say mean and hateful things. IOW, getting drunk doesn't reveal the true you but rather a different you.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              He was seen trespassing. That makes him not innocent by definition and it's what attracted the attention of the McMichaels. That doesn't justify Arbery being killed, but it does dispense with the false "jogging while black" narrative that has built up around this incident.

              Now if it's proven that the McMichaels' actions prior to the shooting were illegal then according to Georgia law, as I understand it, they may be on the hook for life in prison even if it wasn't their intent to kill Arbery. But since the prosecution is going for a murder conviction, they may have made their job harder, because I'm not convinced that it was their intent to kill Arbery and that the decision, if it was even a decision at all, was made in the heat of the moment as Arbery tried to wrestle the gun away. I'm thinking manslaughter would have been easier to prove, but I suppose it's up to the jury to decide.
              MM, the whole thing about him on that property is absurd. There is nothing there. About as 'criminal' as driving 5mph over the speed limit. The fact you keep returning to that as justification for a continued smear campaign of the man is despicable.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                MM, the whole thing about him on that property is absurd. There is nothing there. About as 'criminal' as driving 5mph over the speed limit. The fact you keep returning to that as justification for a continued smear campaign of the man is despicable.
                You're merely handwaving away potentially relevant facts as unimportant, because they threaten your pet narrative, and your desire to paint everyone who disagrees with you as racist. (see, that's the kind of thing, reversed, that you are saying to other posters here.)


                If Arbery was trespassing that may mean that it was legal for people to make a citizen's arrest under Georgia law. Which does not excuse anyone, or blame anyone for what happened after that. But it sets some of the relevant circumstances that may explain (not justify) the McMichaels' actions.

                We know he was on the property without the owner's permission (I believe that is trespassing) , and we know, coming out, he saw someone on the phone (to 911, although he may not have known that) and he then ran off. Those are facts, they don't make anyone right or anyone wrong, but they are what happened. Why do want to hush these facts up?
                Last edited by MaxVel; 06-06-2020, 09:29 AM.
                ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                  You're merely handwaving away potentially relevant facts as unimportant, because they threaten your pet narrative, and your desire to paint everyone who disagrees with you as racist. (see, that's the kind of thing, reversed, that you are saying to other posters here.)


                  If Arbery was trespassing that may mean that it was legal for people to make a citizen's arrest under Georgia law. Which does not excuse anyone, or blame anyone for what happened after that. But it sets some of the relevant circumstances that may explain (not justify) the McMichaels' actions.

                  We know he was on the property without the owner's permission (I believe that is trespassing) , and we know, coming out, he saw someone on the phone (to 911, although he may not have known that) and he then ran off. Those are facts, they don't make anyone right or anyone wrong, but they are what happened. Why do want to hush these facts up?
                  You’re definitely part of the problem if you take trespassing so seriously that you think it may justify the vigilante killing of a human being.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                    You're merely handwaving away potentially relevant facts as unimportant, because they threaten your pet narrative, and your desire to paint everyone who disagrees with you as racist. (see, that's the kind of thing, reversed, that you are saying to other posters here.)
                    A horse by any other name is still a horse.

                    If Arbery was trespassing that may mean that it was legal for people to make a citizen's arrest under Georgia law. Which does not excuse anyone, or blame anyone for what happened after that. But it sets some of the relevant circumstances that may explain (not justify) the McMichaels' actions.
                    What McMichael's actions are you referring to?

                    We know he was on the property without the owner's permission (I believe that is trespassing) , and we know, coming out, he saw someone on the phone (to 911, although he may not have known that) and he then ran off. Those are facts, they don't make anyone right or anyone wrong, but they are what happened. Why do want to hush these facts up?
                    No they are not the facts. Read the reference I provided.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                      If Arbery was trespassing that may mean that it was legal for people to make a citizen's arrest under Georgia law. Which does not excuse anyone, or blame anyone for what happened after that. But it sets some of the relevant circumstances that may explain (not justify) the McMichaels' actions.

                      We know he was on the property without the owner's permission (I believe that is trespassing) , and we know, coming out, he saw someone on the phone (to 911, although he may not have known that) and he then ran off. Those are facts, they don't make anyone right or anyone wrong, but they are what happened. Why do want to hush these facts up?
                      I'm not speaking for oxmixmudd, but I'd like to chime in.

                      IF there's an attempt to hush up the facts as you've listed them, it might be because the list is incomplete. For example, we also know there's video footage of multiple people - not just Arbery - on the property without the owner's permission. Also, it appears no attempt was made to perform a citizen's arrest on these other people, who were mostly white (as far as they appear on the night vision cameras).

                      So - again I'm only speaking for myself - I have no problem with the presentation of facts, so long as the presentation is complete.

                      ps. and in general, I'd have no problem with the same presentation of all of the facts made the shooting victim look like a dangerous criminal. Facts are facts, and they all deserve to be enumerated in the prosecution of a potential murder.
                      Last edited by Whateverman; 06-06-2020, 09:48 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                        I'm not speaking for oxmixmudd, but I'd like to chime in.

                        IF there's an attempt to hush up the facts as you've listed them, it might be because the list is incomplete. For example, we also know there's video footage of multiple people - not just Arbery - on the property without the owner's permission. Also, it appears no attempt was made to perform a citizen's arrest on these other people, who were mostly white (as far as they appear on the night vision cameras).

                        So - again I'm only speaking for myself - I have no problem with the presentation of facts, so long as the presentation is complete.

                        ps. and in general, I'd have no problem with the same presentation of all of the facts made the shooting victim look like a dangerous criminal. Facts are facts, and they all deserve to be enumerated in the prosecution of a potential murder.
                        My point has little to with the presentation of the all facts of a case, which is a given. It has everything to do with the continued focus on facts already shown to be irrelavent and the complete lack of focus on the killers, who THEY were, what THEIR background or foibles are. The only people getting any real scrutiny are the victims, and the majority of comments, the majority of the facts brought to light and presented on these pages serves primarily to denigrate the victims and partially absolve the killers.
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-06-2020, 10:40 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          My point has little to with the presentation of the fafta. It has everything to do with the continued focus on facts already shown to be irrelavent and the complete lack of focus on the killers, who THEY were, what THEIR background or foibles are. The only people getting any real scrutiny are the victims, and every comment, every fact brought to light serves only to denigrate the victims and partially absolve the killers.
                          Really, there's only one difference between people on the opposite sides of any argument: which facts they see as the most significant.

                          Put an atheist and a Christian in the same room - both honest and sincere people - and both will point to different things as being persuasive evidence for/against the existence of god(s). The same is true of whether to support the current president, whether or not Arbery was the victim of a racist murder, whether global warming is a real phenomenon, etc.

                          It's maddening, because if a person really wants to see one piece of evidence as more persuasive than another, there's not much anyone can do to change that.

                          Sorry for the soapbox.

                          For myself, I have a very expansive view of what "evidence" is, and this is why I try to avoid saying "there's no evidence for X" or "that's not evidence for X". I agree that SOME of the people arguing against racism as the main "cause"of Arbery's murder are doing exactly what you said: regurgitating facts which are no longer relevant, or at least not as relevant as they once were. They're gonna be dogmatic about it, too, because their position on racism (ie. an over-played card) is part of their identity & worldview. You can no-more convince them they're focusing on the wrong details of the case than you can convince them that their worldview is wrong.
                          Last edited by Whateverman; 06-06-2020, 10:55 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                            For example, we also know there's video footage of multiple people - not just Arbery - on the property without the owner's permission. Also, it appears no attempt was made to perform a citizen's arrest on these other people, who were mostly white (as far as they appear on the night vision cameras).
                            Do we know if those people were observed trespassing, and the observers chose not to confront them simply because they were white?
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              Do we know if those people were observed trespassing, and the observers chose not to confront them simply because they were white?
                              Still doing your best to defend the actions of the McMichaels, eh MM?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Do we know if those people were observed trespassing
                                We know the footage comes from the same source used to label Arbery as having trespassed: cameras on the property. The others did pretty much just what Arbery did: they go onto the property, and casually walk around looking at the construction.

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                and the observers chose not to confront them simply because they were white?
                                We know that of the footage presented, Abery was the only black man, and that he was the only one subjected to a supposed citizen's arrest.

                                By itself, this isn't justification for concluding the murder was racist. Coupled with subsequent evidence in which the initial story claimed Abery was confronted due to criminality from black people in the neighborhood, and also that racial slurs were used in conjunction with the shooting, it is.
                                Last edited by Whateverman; 06-06-2020, 12:17 PM.

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