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Book Plunge: An Outline of Orthodox Dogmatic Patristics

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  • Book Plunge: An Outline of Orthodox Dogmatic Patristics

    What do I think of Romanides's work?

    The link can be found here.

    -----

    What do I think of Romanides's work published by the Orthodox Research Institute? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    A warning about this book. This one is deep. The average person will not understand it. If you want a book on Orthodoxy that is friendly to the average reader, this isn't the one. This is not said in an insulting sense as such could be said about several Protestant and Catholic books. It's just said because it's true.

    Yet going through, there was not much in theology that I had a problem with. It's one reason I don't understand it when people say they move to Catholicism or Orthodoxy because of the theology. The theology is still very much the same.

    It's when we get into more secondary issues that I start having problems as those secondary issues can often at times appear to be primary issues. This is something that makes this different from many other denominational issues. Orthodox and Catholics both set themselves up as the true church and everyone else is in some lesser position, although I have some reason to be concerned some Orthodox do see those on the outside as not even Christians.

    Mainly, this happens when it comes to Scriptural interpretation. Romanides will tell us about a divine council that gives the interpretation of Scripture and one should not try to think they can interpret apart from that guidance. Unfortunately, no backing is given for this other than the assertion that this council comes from the apostles. How one can know this is unknown.

    This is one of my problems when tradition is put on the same level as Scripture. Which tradition? How can we know? The Orthodox claim the wisdom of the apostles lies in this divine council. The Catholics claim it lies in the magisterium. Both of them claim this on the basis of tradition and both say the other is wrong on the basis of tradition. How could we choose which one?

    What about a Protestant like myself? We go with the one source everyone agrees comes from the apostles, the Scripture. I don't buy into any idea that I need this other group before I can understand the Scripture and I don't accept such in Protestantism either. Anyone willing to do the work of study can have a good understanding of the text. Of course, this won't be an infallible understanding, but it's dangerous to really think one's understanding cannot be wrong anyway.

    This isn't to say that I think the Orthodox are wrong on everything that is a secondary matter. Of course not. I am quite friendly to their idea of heaven and hell in the sense that God's presence is a joy to believers and a torture to those who are not. I also am entirely open to the idea of the church not just being invisible but visible as well. I think that people should be able to look at us in all our traditions and see Jesus.

    Again, while there are things I do like, when it comes to issues such as the treatment of Mary and the saints or the reliability of tradition, I am highly unpersuaded. In fairness, Romanides's probably did not write this book for someone like myself but for those in the fold of Orthodoxy already. Still, if future reading doesn't make better arguments, I will continue to be unconvinced and see such things as the traditions of men but not rooted in Christ or Scripture.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Mainly, this happens when it comes to Scriptural interpretation. Romanides will tell us about a divine council that gives the interpretation of Scripture and one should not try to think they can interpret apart from that guidance. Unfortunately, no backing is given for this other than the assertion that this council comes from the apostles. How one can know this is unknown.

    This is one of my problems when tradition is put on the same level as Scripture. Which tradition? How can we know? The Orthodox claim the wisdom of the apostles lies in this divine council. The Catholics claim it lies in the magisterium. Both of them claim this on the basis of tradition and both say the other is wrong on the basis of tradition. How could we choose which one?
    Do you have any examples? I can't tell if you're misunderstanding Romanides or he's using language with which I'm unfamiliar. Romanides is not uncontroversial within Orthodoxy (in some circles he's revered, in some he's anathema).

    In my understanding, the Church is based on Tradition (in which the Scriptures take primacy of place). This is said not least because the Church came before the (NT) Scriptures; the NT canon wasn't even firmly established until at least the 4th century, and a prime consideration for canonicity was a writing's traditional acceptance and congruence with what had been handed down from the apostles.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      Unfortunately, I can't look now. I had to return the book to the library today.

      There was some debate on canonicity, but many of the books never had debate and if we want to know what came from the apostles, I think it's problematic to say a tradition is from the apostles if our earliest record of it is 200 years after them. I have reason to believe that the Scriptures came from the apostles and we can date those to the 1st century. I am not confident about tradition and remember, Catholics and Orthodox both say their traditions come from the apostles and both of them have contradictory traditions. How are we to decide?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        Unfortunately, I can't look now. I had to return the book to the library today.

        There was some debate on canonicity, but many of the books never had debate and if we want to know what came from the apostles, I think it's problematic to say a tradition is from the apostles if our earliest record of it is 200 years after them.
        Again, it's difficult to argue without specifics, but in councils, people couldn't just assert something was tradition or vote to make something binding on the church; they had to show from previous writings that it wasn't something new.
        I have reason to believe that the Scriptures came from the apostles and we can date those to the 1st century.
        Sure.
        I am not confident about tradition and remember, Catholics and Orthodox both say their traditions come from the apostles and both of them have contradictory traditions. How are we to decide?
        You've said this, twice, but haven't provided anything to back it up. I assume you have something in particular in mind. What is it?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Again, it's difficult to argue without specifics, but in councils, people couldn't just assert something was tradition or vote to make something binding on the church; they had to show from previous writings that it wasn't something new.

          Sure.

          You've said this, twice, but haven't provided anything to back it up. I assume you have something in particular in mind. What is it?
          Well he provided at least one example:

          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          This is one of my problems when tradition is put on the same level as Scripture. Which tradition? How can we know? The Orthodox claim the wisdom of the apostles lies in this divine council. The Catholics claim it lies in the magisterium. Both of them claim this on the basis of tradition and both say the other is wrong on the basis of tradition. How could we choose which one?
          How do we decide whether the magisterium or the council's interpretations are correct? Is one of the questions/examples.
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            Well he provided at least one example:



            How do we decide whether the magisterium or the council's interpretations are correct? Is one of the questions/examples.
            As I (somewhat vaguely) understand it, the "magisterium" is "councils plus dogmatic papal statements". Since papal infallibility is a demostrably new dogma, IMO the answer is evident. Note that East and West were one church until the papacy arrogated to itself supremacy of power and not merely honor; what we have with this example is a difference in wording which became a difference in fact only in time, when one changed and the other declined to accept the change.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              But both of them claim that they are teaching faithfully the tradition. Catholics now add in ideas like the bodily assumption of Mary. Again, how could we tell which one is right? Maybe the Papacy is correct with tradition. Maybe the Orthodox are correct. Maybe none of them are.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                But both of them claim that they are teaching faithfully the tradition. Catholics now add in ideas like the bodily assumption of Mary. Again, how could we tell which one is right? Maybe the Papacy is correct with tradition. Maybe the Orthodox are correct. Maybe none of them are.
                I think you've answered your own question: Catholics now add in....

                ETA: This is very unlike you, Nick, to throw up your hands and decide we can't know rather than carefully investigate to see which position is better supported. It almost seems to be a deliberately agnostic approach.
                Last edited by One Bad Pig; 08-08-2018, 08:27 PM.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have been doing my reading to see if some of the traditions that I think have been added in, on both sides, can be traced back. I just don't see any Biblical confirmation for the ideas about Mary and praying to saints for example. Those seem to come at the earliest in the third century.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                    I have been doing my reading to see if some of the traditions that I think have been added in, on both sides, can be traced back. I just don't see any Biblical confirmation for the ideas about Mary and praying to saints for example. Those seem to come at the earliest in the third century.
                    You're not going to see explicit Biblical confirmation for everything, because the Scriptures were not written to be an exhaustive compendium covering everything. We do find support for such prayers in, e.g., James 5:16 and Rev. 5:8. Much of the church's beliefs about Mary come from the Protevangelion of James, usually dated to the 2nd century.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have looked at the supposed Biblical support and I always find it lacking. For a widespread practice, I would think one would find more attestation in the Scriptures. I also know about Mary. John Meier told me the same in an email and that even many Catholic NT scholars don't hold to perpetual virginity anymore.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        You're not going to see explicit Biblical confirmation for everything, because the Scriptures were not written to be an exhaustive compendium covering everything.
                        If we don't have biblical confirmation for something, why engage in it? Especially if we have everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. We find this knowledge of the Lord via the Apostolic witness recorded in the scriptures, which are useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

                        We do find support for such prayers in, e.g., James 5:16 and Rev. 5:8. Much of the church's beliefs about Mary come from the Protevangelion of James, usually dated to the 2nd century.
                        I think you are performing eisegesis in relation to James 5:16 and Rev. 5:8. The bible consistently encourages us to pray for the living, to the living God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone (Heb. 7:25).
                        Last edited by Scrawly; 08-09-2018, 11:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          I have looked at the supposed Biblical support and I always find it lacking. For a widespread practice, I would think one would find more attestation in the Scriptures.
                          The Orthodox liturgy, Catholic mass, and high church Protestant services are essentially identical in outline and extremely widespread. There is zero attestation in the Scriptures. Zero.
                          I also know about Mary. John Meier told me the same in an email and that even many Catholic NT scholars don't hold to perpetual virginity anymore.
                          Ok. Many Catholic scholars are quite liberal in their beliefs.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            If we don't have biblical confirmation for something, why engage in it?
                            Let's see if you're consistent in this. Do you celebrate Christmas?
                            Especially if we have everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
                            Do we? Prove it.
                            We find this knowledge of the Lord via the Apostolic witness recorded in the scriptures, which are useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.
                            You know that in context 2 Tim. 3:16 refers to the Old Testament, right? Was the NT accepted as canon when 2 Timothy was written?



                            I think you are performing eisegesis in relation to James 5:16 and Rev. 5:8. The bible consistently encourages us to pray for the living, to the living God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone (Heb. 7:25).[/QUOTE]
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              The Orthodox liturgy, Catholic mass, and high church Protestant services are essentially identical in outline and extremely widespread. There is zero attestation in the Scriptures. Zero.
                              Sure, but at the same time I have a bigger problem with practices like praying to the saints since it seems to kind of quasi-deify them. I have no problem with dead saints praying for us. I have a problem with trying to interact with them. I don't see any attestation for that in apostolic teaching. I don't think any Protestant is claiming that the method of a worship service goes back to the apostles or is part of the tradition.

                              Ok. Many Catholic scholars are quite liberal in their beliefs.
                              Sure, but I also find it interesting that I have a hard time thinking of Orthodox New Testament scholars. Asked Mike just in case to see if I was missing anyone. He couldn't think of one either.

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