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Jesus killed babies!?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    True.



    No, Jesus became God the Son at the incarnation when Jesus was conceived.
    The second Person is called God the Son because he is eternally begotten of the Father before all time, and not because he was incarnated as a human. He has always been God the Son.

    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    Yes. The Word became flesh.
    I have no idea if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me here.

    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    No it can't.
    Of course it can. Otherwise you're claiming that God the Son/the Word is not the same person as Jesus of Nazareth, which would be heretical. God the Son did not have a human nature prior to his incarnation, but He's still the same person, both before and after the incarnation.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      His point is that Jesus is worse for killing babies than any violence by Allah in the Qur'an, and Muhammad.
      Is it common for Muslims to identify Allah in the Qur'an as distinct from God identified in the OT?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        Is it common for Muslims to identify Allah in the Qur'an as distinct from God identified in the OT?
        Muslims believe their Allah is the same God as the God of the Bible but Muslims claim the Bible is corrupt where the Bible and the Qur'an contradict each other.

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        • #19
          It's interesting that when I ask Muslims what part of the Torah is corrupted they never can give me a straight answer.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ReformedApologist View Post
            It's interesting that when I ask Muslims what part of the Torah is corrupted they never can give me a straight answer.
            Usually a Muslim will point to Jeremiah 8:8 and say that even the Bible says it is corrupted.

            Comment


            • #21
              And of course Jeremiah 8:8 in context is speaking of those who claim to follow God's law but are hypocrites, much like the Pharisees (Matthew 15:2-3;6).

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ReformedApologist View Post
                And of course Jeremiah 8:8 in context is speaking of those who claim to follow God's law but are hypocrites, much like the Pharisees (Matthew 15:2-3;6).
                Exactly.

                The best way to find out from Muslims where they think the Bible is corrupted is to ask them about verses in the Qur'an that contradict the Bible.

                Like one verse says that Noah's family was saved from the flood and another verse says that one of Noah's sons refused to get on the Ark and drowned.

                Another issue is to ask about Allah needing a wife in order to have a son. Apparently the author of the Qur'an believed that Christians believed that Jesus was the result of sex between God and Mary.

                Of course, the death and resurrection is another one. Allah claimed to teach Jesus the Gospel but the core of the Gospel is Jesus' death and resurrection. IOWs the author of the Qur'an didn't know what the Gospel was.

                And, the author of the Qur'an claims Jesus couldn't be God because He had to eat food which means Allah had never heard of the incarnation which means Allah is not the one and only all-knowing God.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                  Jesus killed babies, so says a Muslim.

                  "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Sam 15:2–3)

                  His logic is since Christians believe Jesus is God and God ordered babies to be killed, then Jesus killed babies.

                  How would you respond to this claim?

                  Thanks.
                  The simplest answer is that all life was created by and belongs to God, and it is his right to take it, or to order it taken.

                  The longer answer is that the Amalekite nation was being punished by God for its sins, and we can assume that God, being compassionate and merciful, gave them ample warning and opportunity to repent, and that his order to the Israelite was the "final straw" against a wicked nation. Most people push back against this saying, "But why couldn't only the defiant members be punished with death, and the rest allowed to live?" The answer is sociological in nature since the "group-think" of collectivist societies would mean that everybody was on board with the rebellion against God; furthermore, God does not indiscriminately kill the righteous along with the unrighteous (in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, he said he would have been willing to spare the cities if there were as few as 10 righteous to be found). The next objection is "But the babies would have been innocent! Why couldn't the Israelites have at least adopted them?" Because survival back then was very difficult, and a sudden influx of possibly thousands of helpless new mouths to feed could have easily threatened the survival of the Israelite nation. In this case, a quick death by sword was preferable.

                  This is one of those questions that is easier to ask than to answer, and many people who pose it as an objection the idea of a loving God rarely find the answer satisfactory, but that's their problem.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                  • #24
                    Just for reference Paul Copan deals with this issue in his books Is God A Moral Monster and Did God Command Genocide. It is more in depth and deals with various aspects.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      Jesus killed babies, so says a Muslim.

                      "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Sam 15:3[*])

                      His logic is since Christians believe Jesus is God and God ordered babies to be killed, then Jesus killed babies.

                      How would you respond to this claim?

                      [* NIV (1984)]

                      Thanks.
                      Even if the doctrine of eternal Sonship is assumed (as usually it is), it must be called to mind that the divine Logos, the second person of the Trinity, had not yet become incarnate (i.e. assumed human nature) during the old-covenant era recounted in 1 Samuel/1 Kingdoms. Though undoubtedly foreknown by God before the creation of the world, the name ‘Jesus’ (Ἰησοῦ, Iēsou) appears to have been bestowed in time upon the Logos with specific reference to his earthly, redemptive mission, from the commencement of his incarnation onwards (see Mt 1.21; Lk 1.31). If this assessment is correct, rather than saying that Jesus commanded the destruction of the Amalekites, it would be more accurate to say that the Father, the pre-incarnate Logos/Son, and the Holy Spirit directed this course of action to be carried out by the people of Israel.
                      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Jesus didn't exist as a human being, but God the Son did. Who became incarnate as Jesus. They are the same person.
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        well your initial argument (the muslim's was: "Jesus is God and God ordered the killing of babies, so Jesus did" - while not technically true, "Jesus" wasn't there, God was as was God the son. So yeah God ordered the killing of infants. But then so did Allah.
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        Well, Jesus didn't exist as a human being before He was born, but He still existed as God the Son. God the Son didn't become a different person when He incarnated as a human, He took on human nature and the name Jesus. So everything God the Son did prior to His incarnation can still be attributed to the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
                        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                          Even if the doctrine of eternal Sonship is assumed (as usually it is), it must be called to mind that the divine Logos, the second person of the Trinity, had not yet become incarnate (i.e. assumed human nature) during the old-covenant era recounted in 1 Samuel/1 Kingdoms. Though undoubtedly foreknown by God before the creation of the world, the name ‘Jesus’ (Ἰησοῦ, Iēsou) appears to have been bestowed in time upon the Logos with specific reference to his earthly, redemptive mission, from the commencement of his incarnation onwards (see Mt 1.21; Lk 1.31). If this assessment is correct, rather than saying that Jesus commanded the destruction of the Amalekites, it would be more accurate to say that the Father, the pre-incarnate Logos/Son, and the Holy Spirit directed this course of action to be carried out by the people of Israel.
                          Yes.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            True.



                            No, Jesus became God the Son at the incarnation when Jesus was conceived.

                            No, He was always God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. The trinity is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. It has always been so. The Son took on Flesh at the incarnation, and was named Jesus. That is all.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                              You are talking about the second person of the Trinity.

                              Jesus of Nazareth as a human being could not do what he sees the Father doing anymore than you and I could.

                              It is the second person of the Trinity who is eternal, not Jesus as a human being.
                              They are the same person. Jesus is just the name he took on when he added a human nature. He is still God the Son, eternally begotten.

                              The human Jesus is not a separate person from God the Son. They are one person with two natures.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                They are the same person. Jesus is just the name he took on when he added a human nature. He is still God the Son, eternally begotten.

                                The human Jesus is not a separate person from God the Son. They are one person with two natures.
                                He* is one person with two natures.

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