Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Pro-choice distortion
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAgain you clearly don't want this sector of healthcare to exist -
and you see it as a life.
The pro-choice people generally do not believe it is a life - and see abortion as one of a range of healthcare options available to a woman in the midst of a pregnancy. When you take a moment to see the argument from the perspective of the other side - there is no animosity or ill will or hatred or evil involved - no death - no killing - just a woman making a decision about her healthcare.
When you decide it is an individuated human person (which is as much a philosophical issue as a scientific one), then suddenly it all looks awful and what you are saying follows naturally.
It is the inability/unwillingness of either side to see the argument as framed from the opposite side that has resulted in the polarized/intransigent situation we find today and have had now for 50+ years.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou did.
Then stop calling it a blob of tissue.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCarpe - look at what you said -- "The people I know who are pro-choice and work in the woman's health industry are not evil, baby-killing, nazi-like, atrocity mongers." That, my friend, is not the same as "the pro-choice advocate". A very important distinction.
Someone who is "pro-choice" is synonymous to me with "a pro-choice advocate." If you think otherwise, then you are splitting hairs I do not split. And these people can and do work in the world of woman's healthcare.
So I have no clue what "distinction" you are trying to draw.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
Again you clearly don't want this sector of healthcare to exist - and you see it as a life. The pro-choice people generally do not believe it is a life - and see abortion as one of a range of healthcare options available to a woman in the midst of a pregnancy. When you take a moment to see the argument from the perspective of the other side - there is no animosity or ill will or hatred or evil involved - no death - no killing - just a woman making a decision about her healthcare.
If they are treating the fetus as a tumor or 'blob of tissue' to be removed for the "health" of the woman, then they are treating pregnancy as a disorder or disease to be cured.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostActually, it's not "healthcare" if it has, as its singular goal, to end a human life.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo does science.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCarpe, it is not at all unusual for somebody in a jam to rationalize and justify a bad decision.
You know - there actually IS another side to the argument. They actually have points. They actually have concerns and fears. They actually are trying to do the right thing. They are as firmly convinced that what YOU are doing is evil - and an injustice - and a denial of fundamental rights.
If you start from their assumptions - you end up at their conclusions without contradiction and without evil. And you are not likely to agree on your assumptions! 50+ years has taught us this. Hence my observation - if you insist on NOT seeing the argument from the other side - and perpetuating the war - then you are part of the problem - not the solution.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhen fertilization occurs, a brand new being with its own unique HUMAN DNA - the map for EVERYTHING that person will become - exists. That's science.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI totally see the argument as framed by the other person -- I deal with it on a weekly basis! I just believe they're every bit as wrong as the alcoholic who claims he doesn't have a problem. He either genuinely believes it, or he's rationalizing and justifying to excuse his poor choice.
So you can keep fighting...or....The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post"they don't think of it as a life - it is just healthcare for the woman" - that is why I said "pregnancy is not a disease"
If they are treating the fetus as a tumor or 'blob of tissue' to be removed for the "health" of the woman, then they are treating pregnancy as a disorder or disease to be cured.
The rest I leave to you.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAt no point have I suggested or said or thought "pregnancy is a disease."
The rest I leave to you.
If they (the prochoice doctors) are treating the fetus as a tumor or 'blob of tissue' to be removed for the "health" of the woman, then they are treating pregnancy as a disorder or disease to be cured.
How about YOU actually reading what someone says for once instead of just seeing what you want to see and complaining about others not reading what YOU said?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo. For the first few weeks of life, the human fetus is an unidentifiable (except possibly to a trained eye) blob of tissue. It's a perfectly apt description. That you are getting your knickers in a knot because you don't like the words is not my problem. I can recognize it as a "blob of tissue" and a "human person" at the same time without contradiction.
Carpe, this line of "logic" is just goofy.
A) Science proves that at fertilization, the result is a new living being with its own unique DNA
2) What it "looks like" to anybody is totally beside the point.
C) The ONLY reason to keep insisting it is a "blob" is to justify its termination.
What?
Someone who is "pro-choice" is synonymous to me with "a pro-choice advocate." If you think otherwise, then you are splitting hairs I do not split. And these people can and do work in the world of woman's healthcare.
So I have no clue what "distinction" you are trying to draw.
I feel sorry for people who work in the abortion mills -- I think they're ignorant of what that business is all about.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostScience sees my thumb as "human life" CP.
EGGcellent point, Carpe!
In FACT, cutting it off without a good cause would be called mutilation!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI had to laugh at "knickers in a knot". You are delusional, my friend. I'm sitting here laughing at you.
Carpe, this line of "logic" is just goofy.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostA) Science proves that at fertilization, the result is a new living being with its own unique DNA
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post2) What it "looks like" to anybody is totally beside the point.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostC) The ONLY reason to keep insisting it is a "blob" is to justify its termination.
Hence - part of the problem....
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSomebody can be "pro-choice" personally, and not be a "pro-choice advocate", Carpe. Surely you must know that. And if a person works in an abortion mill, they certainly have to at least pretend to be pro-choice (though they probably are, or they wouldn't be working there).
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI feel sorry for people who work in the abortion mills -- I think they're ignorant of what that business is all about.
Hence my position...part of the problem.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-08-2019, 02:39 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd, hence, would never suggest cutting it off unless it was a threat to your health.
EGGcellent point, Carpe!
In FACT, cutting it off without a good cause would be called mutilation!
As I said - when you start from their assumptions - you end up at their conclusions without contradiction. When you start with your assumptions - you end up at your conclusions - without contradiction. You have not agreed on the assumptions for 50+ years now - and are not likely to start tomorrow.
So what would you like to do? Keep arguing "I'm right?!!" Or perhaps find the places where you actually DO agree and see if it can be built on....
If you're not part of the solution...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd we take out perfectly healthy tonsils, and wisdom teeth, as a preventative measure. We go into the abdomen and remove large sections of stomach so the person will eat less. Woman have mastectomies of perfectly healthy breasts because they carry a gene that increases their probability of breast cancer. None of these things is considered "mutilation."
As I said - when you start from their assumptions - you end up at their conclusions without contradiction. When you start with your assumptions - you end up at your conclusions - without contradiction. You have not agreed on the assumptions for 50+ years now - and are not likely to start tomorrow.
So what would you like to do? Keep arguing "I'm right?!!" Or perhaps find the places where you actually DO agree and see if it can be built on....
If you're not part of the solution...
Those are all done to cure or prevent a disease or disorder. Are you now saying pregnancy is a disease? I am confused.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd we take out perfectly healthy tonsils, and wisdom teeth, as a preventative measure. We go into the abdomen and remove large sections of stomach so the person will eat less. Woman have mastectomies of perfectly healthy breasts because they carry a gene that increases their probability of breast cancer. None of these things is considered "mutilation."
As I said - when you start from their assumptions - you end up at their conclusions without contradiction. When you start with your assumptions - you end up at your conclusions - without contradiction. You have not agreed on the assumptions for 50+ years now - and are not likely to start tomorrow.
So what would you like to do? Keep arguing "I'm right?!!" Or perhaps find the places where you actually DO agree and see if it can be built on....
If you're not part of the solution...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThose are all done to cure or prevent a disease or disorder. Are you now saying pregnancy is a disease? I am confused.
And yes - you are confused.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostLemme do a google search and find where tonsils or wisdom teeth or sections of stomach or breasts become unique human beings with their own unique DNA....
hold on, still searching....- So I say "my thumb is "human life" and you agreed.
- You cite that cutting it off is mutillation, and I agree.
- I cite examples of other things that are perfectly healthy that we cut off for various reasons - and now that "human life" has to have a distinct, unique genome?
CP - you're moving the goal posts. Any living cell with a complete set of human chromosomes is "human life." There is a difference between "human life" and "a human life" or "a human being" or "a human person." We all agree on what the human genome is - and when a cell is "human or not." Science tells us this.
We do not all agree on when there is a "human person." For you - it is when a completely new human genome is created. So for you the fertilized egg in a petri dish is "a human person." For me it is not. For both of us, that fertilized egg is a human person when it is implanted. For my wife it is not. For all three of us, it is a human person when it has a distinct brainwave pattern, for my friend it is not. For all four of us, it is a distinct human person when it has quickened.
When the "human person" begins will differ based on what it means to be a "human person" to you. On this we can and do have difference, and what is then ethical and not ethical will flow. There is no intent to be evil on anyone's part. And the basis for these beliefs has not changed for 50 years. So build on the commonalities...or continue to wage the war with divisive language?
If you're not part of the solution...
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostActually, I'm a very active part of an organization that has prevented the destruction of hundreds of lives in my own area. You, on the other hand, blog.
You see - you can save a few hundred lives while perpetuating a war that kills millions. Which do you think needs a bit of attention and correction?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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