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Time to ascend?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Not really Leonard. You were kind of all over the map so to speak.
    I answered that God is timeless, and omnipresent. I even provided you with a handy analogy for why you can't assign a physical location to God. I then explained that the Christian conception of Heaven is of it as a higher reality, not part of this world. I explained that when Jesus physically ascended, then this was a display for the sake of the understanding of his disciples.

    That's not being "all over the map", that's literally addressing your points.

    And you know this how?
    That would be a much more interesting discussion, but here I'm content with explaining you Christian doctrine. I won't account for you how Christian doctrine developed.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      I answered that God is timeless, and omnipresent. I even provided you with a handy analogy for why you can't assign a physical location to God.
      I never brought up god specifically, the topic was heaven, where christians believe themselves to be physically going in the next life.


      I then explained that the Christian conception of Heaven is of it as a higher reality, not part of this world.
      Well, if heaven is not a part of this world, and it is the place where christians are physically going after resurrection then it must be a physical place outside and beyond this universe. I don't see how that makes moot my original question concerning ascension.

      I explained that when Jesus physically ascended, then this was a display for the sake of the understanding of his disciples.
      But you're claiming two different things it seems to me. You say that heaven is a physical place, not part of this world, but that Jesus ascension to it was just a show, suggesting that we don't really physically ascend.
      That's not being "all over the map", that's literally addressing your points.
      Well, lets just say that it's not very clear what you are trying to say.
      Last edited by JimL; 01-15-2018, 01:24 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        I never brought up god specifically, the topic was heaven, where christians believe themselves to be physically going in the next life.

        ....
        I'm skipping answering your answer to me for the moment because this is the crux of the problem - Christian theology teaches no such thing.

        there are two schools of thought for the intermediate (i.e. those who are dead to this world but the Second Coming has not yet happened in this time frame [yeah, it's necessary to specify that when dealing with the eternal]) period: 1) souls ascend to heaven and stay with God pending the Second Coming, 2) souls sleep until the Second Coming. I favor the former but it really makes no difference to our discussion. In neither case is the physical body present.

        At the Second Coming we will be 'caught up in the air' with the Lord as He returns and will be with Him thereafter. But not physically in Heaven - not as it's understood presently. When things are concluded (the end times) God will bring about a new creation - basically rebooting the world in its perfected (glorified?) form (this is NOT a perfect analogy but gives an idea of what 'all things made new' really means). The New Jerusalem - basically Heaven made for Earth so that God and Man can be together forever - descends to us. We, the resurrected saints, don't go to heaven - it pretty much comes to us.

        As for Jesus and Elijah - teleporting into a different dimension doesn't necessarily take much time. Both were watched until they disappeared - after that it's unlikely the journey continued as a physical journey - there's no sense to that. In both cases, ascension is for the folks left behind, not to get them where they are going. In yet another poor analogy, it's pretty much Kirk and company walking off into the sunset - until the natives stop watching, then Scotty beams them up.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • #34
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Well, so there is this place called heaven then. So then, how long do you suppose it took Elijah to physically ascend to heaven?
          I doubt the ascent lasted much past when Elisha lost sight of him.

          I suspect 'place' is an over simplification. If we define Heaven as 'wherever God is' then no, it's not a simple place - God is omnipresent. If we think of it as 'where God lives' then again, it can't be a simple place - God is spirit, not corporal.

          Given that time and space come into existence at creation (this is held mutually by naturalism and Christianity), AND that God is eternal (held by Christianity) then Heaven cannot be a physical place since it likely predates creation. Here, it becomes an open question. My personal suspicion is that it's simply part of eternity. The eternal, unlike the temporal, does some seriously weird things (past, present and future coexist, for example). I suspect this isn't limited to time but true of space as well (6th dimension? 20th? More?) - Heaven could theoretically touch all points at the same time (eternity is weird) - and Madeline D'Engle probably best explained it. IF (super duper BIG IF) that's the case, then 'going to Heaven' would be like opening the door to another dimension and walking through.

          Or it's simply a spiritual realm that is likewise simply not visible to us but close at hand.

          But as I already stated, there is no doctrine of saints ascending into Heaven physically - since this isn't what Christians believe there is no time frame answer to your question.

          So, the ascension to heaven was real for Elijah, but more of a magic show in Jesus case?
          Nope to both - in both cases the ascension is for the benefit of those left behind. It's not a magic show - it's simply a definitive view that no, guys, you CAN'T follow either Elijah or Jesus.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • #35
            Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
            No, actually it came to mind, not sure exactly why, during discussion of the "do you believe in zombies thread." I don't go to anti-christian websites CP, never been to one and don't even know of one.
            So what you're saying is that you come up with this dopey stuff all by yourself. Not exactly something to be proud of, Jimmy.
            Last edited by Mountain Man; 01-16-2018, 08:19 AM.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Well, how do you Baptists get there then CP? Heaven is a place, right?
              We have to be outside or we will get stuck on the ceilings. That is how houses get haunted. Someone forgot to die outside so their spirit got stuck on the ceiling.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                I doubt the ascent lasted much past when Elisha lost sight of him.
                Jimmy might want to actually read the Bible if he wants understanding. Acts says that when Jesus ascended, a cloud took him out of sight of the disciples, so he may have only risen a few tens to a few hundred feet before the disciples lost sight of him. He didn't fly out of sight like Superman, so we can infer from scripture that Jesus' act of ascension was symbolic and done for the benefit of the disciples rather than physical necessity.

                But like I said, comprehending this would require that Jimmy really wanted understanding, but he doesn't. He's just trying to mark his territory by impotently pissing on Christianity.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Just curious if any Christians know, or have any ideas as to, once they begin their ascension, how long it will take them to reach the promised land. I don't know, but I'm thinking it must be quite a long flight being that heaven must be outside and beyond the 14 billion light year across universe, so, even should you travel at the speed of light, it would take at the very least 14 billion years to get there. It's a really long way to go!
                  Heaven is an idea associated with dreaming. In dreams we inhabit strange spiritual zones without actually travelling in the physical sense. Heaven, like dreaming is for the living, not the dead.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

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                  • #39
                    By the way, if the big bang was 14 billion years ago then the universe (if it expanded at the speed of light) would be 28 billion light years across. Just sayin.
                    Last edited by Sparko; 01-22-2018, 09:07 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      By the way, if the big bang was 14 billion years ago then the universe (if it expanded at the speed of light) would be 28 BILLION light years across. Just sayin.
                      FIFY n/c

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        FIFY n/c
                        I have no idea what you mean!

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          I have no idea what you mean!
                          I'm sure you don't
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Last edited by Sparko; Today at 10:07 AM.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            I'm sure you don't
                            and actually the universe is larger than 28 billion light years because of dark energy which causes space to expand faster than light and get faster all the time!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Didn't Jesus sorta teleport? How else did He get into that locked room!
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                Didn't Jesus sorta teleport? How else did He get into that locked room!
                                It's what we call a tall tale.

                                Comment

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