Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

Should God Appear To Me?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    They go to hell for sinning.
    But that can't be Sparko, that would be unjust. What you're arguing is that your god favors certain peoples over other people for no good reason. Is your god unjust?

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      But that can't be Sparko, that would be unjust. What you're arguing is that your god favors certain peoples over other people for no good reason. Is your god unjust?
      He favors those who ask for forgiveness through his Son's sacrifice in their place. I told you that you had to believe in God to be saved but if you don't, you will be damned because of your sins.

      Pure Justice would be to make all people regardless to pay for their sins. But God has Mercy on us instead. So in that manner I guess you can say it is "unjust" - I sure don't deserve to be saved. I am no better than you are. I just asked Jesus to forgive and save me.

      The same unjust offer is open to you too.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        He favors those who ask for forgiveness through his Son's sacrifice in their place. I told you that you had to believe in God to be saved but if you don't, you will be damned because of your sins.

        Pure Justice would be to make all people regardless to pay for their sins. But God has Mercy on us instead. So in that manner I guess you can say it is "unjust" - I sure don't deserve to be saved. I am no better than you are. I just asked Jesus to forgive and save me.

        The same unjust offer is open to you too.
        You're avoiding the point Sparko. What about all those who have never heard of, therefore have never asked for, forgiveness from your god? They go to hell, right, and that, as you admit, would be unjust, no? So is your god an unjust god?

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          You're avoiding the point Sparko. What about all those who have never heard of, therefore have never asked for, forgiveness from your god? They go to hell, right, and that, as you admit, would be unjust, no? So is your god an unjust god?
          I already answered you on this same question several times, JimL. They go to hell because they are sinners and that is JUST. The 'unjust' part is that God has mercy on those who ask him for salvation and turn their lives over to him based on Jesus' sacrifice. The reason Jesus had to die was to satisfy that justice so that God could extend mercy on to any who ask. So that way God can remain just and the sins are punished but Jesus paid the punishment instead of me. The debt owed was paid. Your debt can be paid too if you just ask. But since you won't you will just pay it yourself and justice is done.

          Romans 10 talks about this very question of yours. You might want to read it. Heck read all of Romans. It lays everything out for you: mercy, justification, sanctification. Give it a try.
          Romans 10:8
          “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

          14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            Does God owe you a personal appearance?

            The link can be found here.

            ----

            What if an atheist requires a personal appearance? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.*

            Many times when I ask someone who is an atheist or an agnostic what it would take to get them to change their mind, they tell me that God would need to appear to them. This sounds like something that makes sense on the face of it. After all, doesn't God want people to come to know Him? Why wouldn't He do this?

            Unfortunately, the problems with this are legion. First off, when I encounter someone like this, they are telling me that an argument would not convince them. It would take a personal experience. Therefore, any arguments that I make are ineffective to them. Somehow, these people expect me to be open to argument at the same time, which I am.

            Second, God owes us nothing if He is real. It is a presumptuous height to think God owes anyone a personal experience. God could do it, but He could just as easily strike someone with a lightning bolt. That doesn't mean that He would do it or that He should do it.

            "But doesn't God want to see me saved?"

            Yes. That doesn't mean that God will do anything to cater to you. It doesn't mean that God treats His existence like the answer to a question in Trivial Pursuit. God is not looking for people who will believe that He exists. He is looking for people who are willing to believe the truth about Him and want to know the truth about Him not just to answer an academic question, but because He really matters.*

            If you are a wife, imagine a husband who says he loves you, but when he does so, he is just going through the motions. It doesn't really mean something to you. If you are a husband, you want your wife to want to have sex with you, but husbands don't really enjoy duty sex. They'll take it because some sex beats no sex, but what they want the most is to be wanted.

            God is looking for disciples. Disciples are people who care about truth claims. They are willing to investigate. If someone is not willing to investigate, then they are not willing to be a disciple.

            Also, this would ultimately lead to chaos. For one thing, it would destroy much of free-will en masse. Not only that, imagine any number of people wanting to claim something because God told them in their personal appearance. What would a dictator do with this kind of claim? We have enough denominational differences without these appearances. How many more would we have with? Would we become an even lazier culture?

            "But Nick. You believe that in eternity, we will all have a personal appearance of God and this won't go on."

            Right. We will also be living in a world where we do not have sinful natures. As long as we have those, we will often twist everything we can to our advantage. This includes the truth of God. We have abundant evidence of people using anything to their own advantage today. How much more so with personal appearances of God being known around the world and the fact of personal appearances not in dispute?

            If you want to know if God exists, God could show Himself to you, but it's not to be expected. Granted, it has been happening to Muslims in dreams and to people like Paul, but if God isn't appearing to someone, if He is real, He has a good reason for it. It doesn't invalidate the arguments at all.

            In Christ,
            Nick Peters
            People who “demand” that God appear to them, do not what they are asking for. And what do they think they are, to make such a demand ?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I already answered you on this same question several times, JimL. They go to hell because they are sinners and that is JUST. The 'unjust' part is that God has mercy on those who ask him for salvation and turn their lives over to him based on Jesus' sacrifice. The reason Jesus had to die was to satisfy that justice so that God could extend mercy on to any who ask. So that way God can remain just and the sins are punished but Jesus paid the punishment instead of me. The debt owed was paid. Your debt can be paid too if you just ask. But since you won't you will just pay it yourself and justice is done.

              Romans 10 talks about this very question of yours. You might want to read it. Heck read all of Romans. It lays everything out for you: mercy, justification, sanctification. Give it a try.
              Romans 10:8
              “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

              14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
              Right, so like I said, your god is unjust in that he has mercy on those who have heard of his existence and believe it, and not on those who have never heard of his existence nor believe it? So your god is unjust, right or wrong?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Right, so like I said, your god is unjust in that he has mercy on those who have heard of his existence and believe it, and not on those who have never heard of his existence nor believe it? So your god is unjust, right or wrong?
                He is just. That is why Jesus had to die for our sins.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  He is just. That is why Jesus had to die for our sins.
                  No, he apparently only died for the sins of those who have ever heard of him and believe in him. That's unjust , right?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    No, he apparently only died for the sins of those who have ever heard of him and believe in him. That's unjust , right?
                    No he died for your sins too. All you have to do is accept it. But you can't because you don't believe in God. It's all your fault.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      No he died for your sins too. All you have to do is accept it. But you can't because you don't believe in God. It's all your fault.
                      Still avoiding the obvious I see, Sparko. There are billions of people who lived and had never heard of Jesus and so didn't believe in him, which, according to you, they all went to hell. Did Jesus die for their sins? Of course not. Now try answering to that instead of continuing to spew your illogical nonsense.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Still avoiding the obvious I see, Sparko. There are billions of people who lived and had never heard of Jesus and so didn't believe in him, which, according to you, they all went to hell. Did Jesus die for their sins? Of course not. Now try answering to that instead of continuing to spew your illogical nonsense.
                        Yes Jesus died for everyone's sins and freely saves all who ask. and everyone who goes to hell does so because of their own sins. The reason you can't accept it is because you are damned. To you it all sounds foolish. But that's to be expected. If you had any sense you would believe and be saved. So instead God gives you over to your own delusion.

                        1 Corinthians 1:18
                        For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

                        Romans 1:28
                        Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Yes Jesus died for everyone's sins and freely saves all who ask. and everyone who goes to hell does so because of their own sins. The reason you can't accept it is because you are damned. To you it all sounds foolish. But that's to be expected. If you had any sense you would believe and be saved. So instead God gives you over to your own delusion.

                          1 Corinthians 1:18
                          For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

                          Romans 1:28
                          Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
                          Why, I wonder, don't you address my actual argument rather than repeating the same drivel over and over again. Are you having a problem comprehending my point? Here, I'll try once again. See if you can get it this time. "There have been millions of people who have lived and never even heard of your Jesus of 2000 years ago. Did Jesus die in order to save them or not?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Why, I wonder, don't you address my actual argument rather than repeating the same drivel over and over again. Are you having a problem comprehending my point? Here, I'll try once again. See if you can get it this time. "There have been millions of people who have lived and never even heard of your Jesus of 2000 years ago. Did Jesus die in order to save them or not?
                            Romans 2 says:

                            Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Romans 2 says:

                              Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
                              Not answering the question Sparko. Did Jesus die in order to save those that never heard of him?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Not answering the question Sparko. Did Jesus die in order to save those that never heard of him?
                                I answered you - read Romans. Jesus sacrifice covers the sin of mankind. All of mankind. It is applied only to those who ask him for salvation.

                                Basically it is like a prepaid ticket waiting for you to ask for it at the box office. It is there for anyone who asks. But only those who do ask will get it. Anyone who doesn't will pay their own way even though there was a prepaid ticket just waiting for them if they wanted.

                                In your case you do know about it yet you refuse to accept it. So rather than worry about the "millions who didn't know" you should worry about yourself because you will have no excuse.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
                                14 responses
                                74 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
                                6 responses
                                60 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                                Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
                                1 response
                                23 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
                                0 responses
                                22 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                                Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
                                3 responses
                                44 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Working...
                                X