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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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  • #91
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    But that is not true, China's whole population, save the political elite, are in de facto bondage. And their cohesion is fine.
    China has functioned under an authoritarian regime since the days of the emperors just as Christian Europe and its colonies lived under absolute monarchs. But the Christian states of southern USA maintained race-based discrimination long after they were forced (reluctantly) to abolish slavery.

    And where do you find liberty as a right in nature? This is just silly
    The human animal is an example of the concept of “liberty as a right in nature.” And other social species such as our primate cousins instinctively maintain rules of acceptable and unacceptable behavior.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      China has functioned under an authoritarian regime since the days of the emperors just as Christian Europe and its colonies lived under absolute monarchs. But the Christian states of southern USA maintained race-based discrimination long after they were forced (reluctantly) to abolish slavery.
      What is your point? My point is that you can have bondage and still maintain social cohesion. So your argument about liberty being necessary for cohesion is bunk...

      The human animal is an example of the concept of “liberty as a right in nature.” And other social species such as our primate cousins instinctively maintain rules of acceptable and unacceptable behavior.
      That makes no sense, nature doesn't care about liberty. And yes the alpha males in primate groups maintain the rules of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and often very violently. So what is your point?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Except Christ is the single most influential spiritual leader in human history. Now who is more likely to have the hand of God on him - Baha'u'llah or Christ...
        This is based on your belief, and not the consensus of everyone, This does not address the factual issues of morals and ethics in the history of humanity, nor the matter of fact history of slavery, nor the history of the Baha'i Faith concerning slavery. Of course you do not believe in the Baha'i Faith, but it is factual related to the life of Baha'u'llah that he demonstrated His teaching of forbidding slavery by releasing His slaves and as a living example of encouraging others to do so before the writings were complete. IF He is a Manifestation of God than His actions are the Word of God as were the actions of Christ were the Word of God, before His words were written down.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-16-2020, 07:21 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          This is based on your belief, and not the consensus of everyone, This does not address the factual issues of morals and ethics in the history of humanity, nor the matter of fact history of slavery, nor the history of the Baha'i Faith concerning slavery. Of course you do not believe in the Baha'i Faith, but it is factual related to the life of Baha'u'llah that he demonstrated His teaching of forbidding slavery by releasing His slaves and as a living example of encouraging others to do so before the writings were complete. IF He is a Manifestation of God than His actions are the Word of God as were the actions of Christ were the Word of God, before His words were written down.
          No Shuny it is a fact - who has the most followers today? Baha'u'llah or Christ, and who influenced human history more? So was the Bab sinning by owning a slave? And if slavery is so immoral why didn't the manifestations of God before Baha'u'llah say so? No, by the time Baha'u'llah decided that slavery was immoral the Abolition movement was well underway. Bandwagon!
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            What is your point? My point is that you can have bondage and still maintain social cohesion. So your argument about liberty being necessary for cohesion is bunk...
            You can have bondage and still have social cohesion, but immorality can exist and still have social cohesion, and this has been true throughout the history of humanity.


            That makes no sense, nature doesn't care about liberty. And yes the alpha males in primate groups maintain the rules of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and often very violently. So what is your point?
            Humans do the same thing.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              No Shuny it is a fact - who has the most followers today? Baha'u'llah or Christ, and who influenced human history more? So was the Bab sinning by owning a slave? And if slavery is so immoral why didn't the manifestations of God before Baha'u'llah say so? No, by the time Baha'u'llah decided that slavery was immoral the Abolition movement was well underway. Bandwagon!
              Arguing from popularity is a fallacy, and the Baha'i Faith is not on the Bandwagon, because the Bible and the Quran do not forbid slavery, and slavery was an intimate part of their history, and Baha'is did not own slaves.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                What is your point? My point is that you can have bondage and still maintain social cohesion. So your argument about liberty being necessary for cohesion is bunk...
                Not “necessary” for social cohesion but preferable in terms of moral values and human happiness.

                That makes no sense, nature doesn't care about liberty.
                Nature doesn’t “care” about anything - you’re attributing agency where none exists. The concept of “liberty as a right in nature” arises from Enlightenment values emphasizing reason and human rights. It doesn't exist under autocratic monarchs or rulers.

                And yes the alpha males in primate groups maintain the rules of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and often very violently. So what is your point?
                The point is that ALL social species develop rules of behavior in order to maintain a functioning cohesive society, necessary for survival. Some have been violent in application - not just among primates but in human society as well.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Arguing from popularity is a fallacy, and the Baha'i Faith is not on the Bandwagon, because the Bible and the Quran do not forbid slavery, and slavery was an intimate part of their history, and Baha'is did not own slaves.
                  Let me ask again Shuny, was the Bab doing something immoral by owning slaves? And if slavery is so bad why didn't the earlier manifestations of God forbid it? Why did He wait until the Abolition movement was well underway?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Not “necessary” for social cohesion but preferable in terms of moral values and human happiness.
                    Then your whole argument tying liberty to social cohesion fails. And remember moral values and happiness are subjective and relative in your world. Game set and match.


                    Nature doesn’t “care” about anything - you’re attributing agency where none exists. The concept of “liberty as a right in nature” arises from Enlightenment values emphasizing reason and human rights. It doesn't exist under autocratic monarchs or rulers.
                    Yet you can not make the argument that enlightenment values are objectively better or more correct. And some Enlightenment thinkers supported racism...

                    The Enlightenment’s Dark Side:https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...bout-race.html
                    Last edited by seer; 02-17-2020, 07:41 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Let me ask again Shuny, was the Bab doing something immoral by owning slaves? And if slavery is so bad why didn't the earlier manifestations of God forbid it? Why did He wait until the Abolition movement was well underway?
                      Actually no Revelation is progressive. Your avoiding the biggy, the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Actually no Revelation is progressive. Your avoiding the biggy, the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument.
                        I'm not avoiding anything Shuny, obviously God didn't think it was that important to wait centuries. And again was Bab doing something immoral by owning slaves?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I'm not avoiding anything Shuny, obviously God didn't think it was that important to wait centuries. And again was Bab doing something immoral by owning slaves?
                          ctually no Revelation is progressive. Your avoiding the biggy, Why did the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument.?.

                          If you believe the Bible is the standard today you should believe slavery is moral and ethical
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-17-2020, 07:08 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            ctually no Revelation is progressive. Your avoiding the biggy, Why did the Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery, which shots down your argument.?.

                            If you believe the Bible is the standard today you should believe slavery is moral and ethical
                            What are you talking about? The Bible and the Quran did not forbid slavery because according to you God didn't not want to forbid it until Baha’u’llah in the 1800s. And are you saying that it wasn't immoral for the Bab to own a slave?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Then your whole argument tying liberty to social cohesion fails.
                              I didn’t tie “liberty” to social cohesion necessarily, I said it was “preferable in terms of moral values and human happiness”.

                              And remember moral values and happiness are subjective and relative in your world. .
                              Just as moral values are demonstrably “subjective and relative” in your biblical world – the centuries of acceptance and then rejection of slavery being an example.

                              Yet you can not make the argument that enlightenment values are objectively better or more correct.
                              And you cannot make the argument that biblical values are objectively better or more correct. The bible can be made to reinforce what the society of the day believes at any given period of history.

                              And some Enlightenment thinkers supported racism...
                              Some did. Whereas the majority of Christians supported slavery and racism for most of Christian history.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Infidels and libtards are dishonest interlocutors who have no interest in what the Bible teaches about slavery, except to the extent that they can try to weaponize it against believers.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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