Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

[Sparko]

This is a interesting point seeing as violent crime (especially homicide) within 1st world nations in general apparently went down in the same period starting around the early 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_drop

So the drop in crime in the US is unlikely to be correlated with an increase in guns purchases (and it should be noted that while many of those guns were purchased by first time owners, a significant number were purchased by previous owners scared of the threat of stricter restrictions).

I don't think you can say that owning more guns CAUSED the reduction in gun related crime but you can say that owning more guns doesn't increase gun related crimes (which seems to be the whole point of gun bans.)

[Adrift]

I don't think you can say that owning more guns CAUSED the reduction in gun related crime but you can say that owning more guns doesn't increase gun related crimes (which seems to be the whole point of gun bans.)

True, but as you likely know, my perspective on the issue is that as long as you have guns in the country at all, you're going to have crime committed by guns, which is why I'm fine with a complete ban.

[Adrift]

I'm not really interested in changing your mind tbh, the US is whatever it wants to be, go for it - enjoy your high levels of crime.

Hey! Not all of us enjoy it. I say get rid of them already. But that won't happen in my lifetime. Americans have an almost spiritual connection to guns.

[rogue06]

This is a interesting point seeing as violent crime (especially homicide) within 1st world nations in general apparently went down in the same period starting around the early 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_drop

So the drop in crime in the US is unlikely to be correlated with an increase in guns purchases (and it should be noted that while many of those guns were purchased by first time owners, a significant number were purchased by previous owners scared of the threat of stricter restrictions).

Never said it did.

But it goes a very long way in refuting the notion that having more guns in circulation will lead to more gun-related violence since the evidence shows that this is definitely not the case.

[Sparko]

True, but as you likely know, my perspective on the issue is that as long as you have guns in the country at all, you're going to have crime committed by guns, which is why I'm fine with a complete ban.

Criminals won't turn in their guns. And there are so many guns in the USA that even if they repealed the 2nd amendment and outlawed guns, and even stopped the manufacture of guns, they would not ever get rid of them. And in this age of 3D printing, anyone can make their own gun. And making bullets is just as easy.

[KingsGambit]

Hey! Not all of us enjoy it. I say get rid of them already. But that won't happen in my lifetime. Americans have an almost spiritual connection to guns.

I detest gun culture with every bone in my body, but I recognize that any attempt to actually get rid of them will backfire. When you have high numbers of people who will literally give their lives to hold onto their arsenals, it's clear there's no fix.

[Adrift]

Never said it did.

Never said you said it did. I was just making a random point, it wasn't directed at anyone specifically.

But it goes a very long way in refuting the notion that having more guns in circulation will lead to more gun-related violence since the evidence shows that this is definitely not the case.

True, see my reply to Sparko.

[Adrift]

Criminals won't turn in their guns. And there are so many guns in the USA that even if they repealed the 2nd amendment and outlawed guns, and even stopped the manufacture of guns, they would not ever get rid of them. And in this age of 3D printing, anyone can make their own gun. And making bullets is just as easy.

I think given enough time guns will either break or become so hard to obtain that criminals will be forced to look for less deadly alternatives. If it takes 100/200 years to finally clean up the gun issue, I think it'd be worth it, but I think we'd see results on a national level sooner than that. Also, as we've discussed previously, criminals are unlikely to obtain 3D printers, the printers themselves and the material to print with are relatively expensive, and it's not like you can build very rugged guns with them anyways (perhaps in the future, but we're limited to plastic guns currently that don't hold up too well after a few shots). If it comes to a future where we have to seriously worry about 3D guns, I say we cross that bridge when it becomes a real threat. As it is, normal guns are way way too easy to obtain.

[lilpixieofterror]

I think given enough time guns will either break or become so hard to obtain that criminals will be forced to look for less deadly alternatives. If it takes 100/200 years to finally clean up the gun issue, I think it'd be worth it, but I think we'd see results on a national level sooner than that. Also, as we've discussed previously, criminals are unlikely to obtain 3D printers, the printers themselves and the material to print with are relatively expensive, and it's not like you can build very rugged guns with them anyways (perhaps in the future, but we're limited to plastic guns currently that don't hold up too well after a few shots). If it comes to a future where we have to seriously worry about 3D guns, I say we cross that bridge when it becomes a real threat. As it is, normal guns are way way too easy to obtain.

Lots of today’s tech was once too expensive or just a pipe dream at one point. Cell phones, microwaves, computers, LCD TVs, etc are just a few examples that have gone from luxury items to common household appliances.

[Sparko]

I think given enough time guns will either break or become so hard to obtain that criminals will be forced to look for less deadly alternatives. If it takes 100/200 years to finally clean up the gun issue, I think it'd be worth it, but I think we'd see results on a national level sooner than that. Also, as we've discussed previously, criminals are unlikely to obtain 3D printers, the printers themselves and the material to print with are relatively expensive, and it's not like you can build very rugged guns with them anyways (perhaps in the future, but we're limited to plastic guns currently that don't hold up too well after a few shots). If it comes to a future where we have to seriously worry about 3D guns, I say we cross that bridge when it becomes a real threat. As it is, normal guns are way way too easy to obtain.

Back in 2013 Solid Metal Concepts printed a metal 1911 semi-auto pistol. So the technology is already here.

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/texas-f...nted-metal-gun

And sure, right now it would be prohibitively expensive to print them, but costs come down and technology gets cheaper and easier to obtain. And not every crook would need one. Just the supplier. Or heck the supplier could just have a machine shop and make guns the old fashioned way all day long. If guns are outlawed, it becomes cost effective as the price of black market guns goes up.

[rogue06]

I think given enough time guns will either break or become so hard to obtain that criminals will be forced to look for less deadly alternatives. If it takes 100/200 years to finally clean up the gun issue, I think it'd be worth it, but I think we'd see results on a national level sooner than that. Also, as we've discussed previously, criminals are unlikely to obtain 3D printers, the printers themselves and the material to print with are relatively expensive, and it's not like you can build very rugged guns with them anyways (perhaps in the future, but we're limited to plastic guns currently that don't hold up too well after a few shots). If it comes to a future where we have to seriously worry about 3D guns, I say we cross that bridge when it becomes a real threat. As it is, normal guns are way way too easy to obtain.

And yet once again I'll point out that using simple primitive techniques like the Lost Wax Casting method virtually anyone with access to a secluded area can manufacture respectable copies of even fully automatic firearms -- like Afghan tribesmen have been doing in mountain villages for generations.

And a gun will last a good long time if properly looked after. My Browning 9mm High Powers date from the 1930s and still function flawlessly.

[Adrift]

Lots of today’s tech was once too expensive or just a pipe dream at one point. Cell phones, microwaves, computers, LCD TVs, etc are just a few examples that have gone from luxury items to common household appliances.

"I say we cross that bridge when it becomes a real threat." The idea that we should throw our hands up in the air because of future possibilities seems a little silly to me. I always think it's strange that the same people (not necessarily people here, but people in general) who are against a total ban of guns because "people will find a way" tend not to have the same view about laws restricting/banning hard drugs.

[rogue06]

Back in 2013 Solid Metal Concepts printed a metal 1911 semi-auto pistol. So the technology is already here.

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/texas-f...nted-metal-gun

And sure, right now it would be prohibitively expensive to print them, but costs come down and technology gets cheaper and easier to obtain. And not every crook would need one. Just the supplier. Or heck the supplier could just have a machine shop and make guns the old fashioned way all day long. If guns are outlawed, it becomes cost effective as the price of black market guns goes up.

Yup. You'll be hearing about a machine shop or some garage-based operation getting busted like you used to here about stills being raided.

[Adrift]

And yet once again I'll point out that using simple primitive techniques like the Lost Wax Casting method virtually anyone with access to a secluded area can manufacture respectable copies of even fully automatic firearms -- like Afghan tribesmen have been doing in mountain villages for generations.

And a gun will last a good long time if properly looked after. My Browning 9mm High Powers date from the 1930s and still function flawlessly.

I have a feeling that your average gang-banger looking to mow down a rival, or your average jealous boyfriend out to kill his girlfriend is not going to take the time to lost-wax cast a gun and go on a spree. And if this does become a real cottage industry, I'm sure we have the government resources to bust them up. It's not like it'd be that easy to get away with. Gangbangers and the like seem unlikely to be the type of people who take great care of their weapons anyways, but I could be wrong about that.

[Adrift]

Back in 2013 Solid Metal Concepts printed a metal 1911 semi-auto pistol. So the technology is already here.

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/texas-f...nted-metal-gun

And sure, right now it would be prohibitively expensive to print them, but costs come down and technology gets cheaper and easier to obtain. And not every crook would need one. Just the supplier. Or heck the supplier could just have a machine shop and make guns the old fashioned way all day long. If guns are outlawed, it becomes cost effective as the price of black market guns goes up.

I mean, again, we cross that bridge when we get to it. Make blueprints illegal. Bust down machine shops, etc.