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Mass Shooting El Paso...

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The movie version was awful.
    I loved it. And ironically it's what pushed me into joining the Air Force.

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    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I never said they didn't have armed MPs and I did mention weapons training, But MPs are no more prevalent than Police on the outside. They are not everywhere.

      Also I question your "quick access to armories" - Armories are pretty secure places. You have to have reasons and forms to get weapons out of an Armory. And they aren't just located at every corner.
      Again, my experience is different than yours. Most bases have plenty of SFs/MPs who can get to a scene much quicker than your standard police officer, and armories are, in fact, easy to access and arm up at. It's kind of important for that to be the case, since base defense is a big part of, well, being a base.

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      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        That.

        I was taught the same thing. Not that they MIGHT be loaded, but that they ARE loaded.
        Assume they are REAL, they are LOADED, and they are DEADLY.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Again, my experience is different than yours. Most bases have plenty of SFs/MPs who can get to a scene much quicker than your standard police officer, and armories are, in fact, easy to access and arm up at. It's kind of important for that to be the case, since base defense is a big part of, well, being a base.
          Fort Hood is a YUGE base.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Fort Hood is a YUGE base.
            As I pointed out, Ramstein appears to be the second largest. So, I've got some experience on large bases.

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            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I was Security Forces on a military base 4 years before the the Ft. Hood shooting. I feel like I know a little bit about how well armed base personnel are, and how quickly one can get to an armory.
              I'm going by the findings - the shooter was supposedly counting on the majority of people where he began his spree being unarmed and the success of that spree does seem to back that theory.

              Jonesboro is probably a better example - everyone in that county was likely armed - but being armed up against snipers, even kids, doesn't have the deterrent effect and has little practical effect, unless the person is trained to deal with that eventuality, which was probably the case in Dayton.

              Like I said, I think Sparky is over estimating the effect - but I do have to grant it exists.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Fort Hood is the exception that proves the rule. IIRC, someone recently posted stats that show that well over 90% of mass shootings take place in gun free zones.
                As with so many things, fun with statistics. In this case - fun with definitions AND statistics. This article breaks down some of the assumptions of this claim and oft-cited statistic.

                And, of course, we have the whole issue of causality. Do mass shootings happen in gun-free zones because they are gun-free? Or do they happen in "gun-free zones" because these zones are typically declared where large numbers of people gather and someone looking to kill large numbers of people is going to go where large numbers of people gather. In other words, would they happen with greater or less frequency if the zones were NOT gun-free and simply had a large number of people there? AFAIK, we do not know the answer to that question.

                People tend to grab onto, and continually repeat, the statistics that support their existing POV and ignore the rest of the data.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  If I'm remembering correctly, Robert Heinlein was known for his militarism, which was cynically poked at by Paul Verhoeven in his adaptation of Starship Troopers.
                  Yeah the movie was pretty much the polar opposite of the book.

                  For me the most pro 2A sci-fi novel out there has to be The Weapon Shops of Isher by A. E. van Vogt.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    If I'm remembering correctly, Robert Heinlein was known for his militarism, which was cynically poked at by Paul Verhoeven in his adaptation of Starship Troopers.
                    If memory serves, that was in his early work (Troopers was one of his first, if not his first, novels). Stranger certainly didn't have a militaristic vibe...
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

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                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Correlation does not equal causation. "Gun free zones" typically happen to be places full of people, which is what the crazed gunman is really after.
                      It also doesn't eliminate causation - we'd need to study cases to see if there were non-'gun free zones' that the killers bypassed.

                      Personally, I think it's not the first consideration - that would likely be the availability of victims.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

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                      • I actually like both the Starship Troopers movie and book, but for different reasons and they share only the most superficial similarities.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Fort Hood is a YUGE base.
                          Dang. Lost my bet with Master Po. I said it would be MM who first described it thusly.

                          Now I gotta go out and pick up some "Oh Nuts" assorted nuts as payment.
                          Last edited by rogue06; 08-09-2019, 02:28 PM.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Please stop with the phony Russian accent. Nobody believes you are Russian or even a non-native English speaker. In fact, before your return, your English was much better.

                            So just give up the stupid game. Your posts are nearly impossible to read.
                            I thought he was trying to sound like a three year old?

                            Not that it matters to me - I only see his posts when other people make the mistake of answering him.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Assume they are REAL, they are LOADED, and they are DEADLY.
                              Don't assume. "Know" that they are loaded.


                              Yeah splitting hairs but there is no room for any possible doubt.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                I thought he was trying to sound like a three year old?

                                Not that it matters to me - I only see his posts when other people make the mistake of answering him.
                                Three year olds have better syntax.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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