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  • #61
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    We were created in the image and likeness of God. That image is damaged from the Fall, but it is still there. Your view verges on Gnostic, not Christian.
    Argue with Paul, not me...


    For I know that in me that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      We were created in the image and likeness of God. That image is damaged from the Fall, but it is still there. Your view verges on Gnostic, not Christian.
      How is that Gnostic?
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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      • #63
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Argue with Paul, not me...


        For I know that in me that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
        You're taking hyperbole and applying it literally.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          How is that Gnostic?
          The Gnostic view is that the material world (including flesh) is evil.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #65
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            You're taking hyperbole and applying it literally.
            So you get to decide what is hyperbole? I think Paul was perfectly clear.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              The Gnostic view is that the material world (including flesh) is evil.
              Did I say that the material world was evil? No I said we are evil (or just speaking for myself, I am evil). As Christ said: Apart from me you can do nothing i.e. no good.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Argue with Paul, not me...


                For I know that in me that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
                I will eventually be showing that Paul was describing the world as seen by the audience to the Romans epistle. The audience was having trouble getting away from fleshly behavior. Note that it will take more than a forum discussion to explain what was happening. Thomas Tobin has proposed part of this theory -- but he was missing some important details.

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                • #68
                  FWIW, here are some relevant comments from Craig Keener's IVP Bible Background Commentary:

                  The Struggle of Human Effort Under the Law

                  Many commentators have thought that 7:14–25 describes Paul’s struggle with sin at the time he was writing the passage, because he uses present-tense verbs. But diatribe style, which Paul uses in much of Romans, was graphic in its images, and Paul in the context has been describing his past life under law (7:7–13). Thus it is more likely that Paul contrasts the spiritual worthlessness of religious introspection and self-centeredness (count the “I’s” and “me’s”) in Romans 7 with the life of the Spirit by grace in Romans 6 and 8.

                  Jewish teachers said that repentance and learning the law were the only present cures for the evil impulse; here Paul replies that knowing moral truth had not freed him from sin. But Judaism also believed that in the day of judgment the evil impulse would be eradicated. As some rabbis later put it, “God will take the evil impulse out in the sight of the nations and slay it”; or as Paul put it, Christians are dead to sin and freed from its power (chap. 6). Paul’s point in the context is that one must receive righteousness (including the power to live rightly) as a gift of God’s grace, not as an achievement by human effort (cf. 1:17; 8:4). (This reading of the passage accords with most Greek, as against most Latin, church fathers.)

                  ==============

                  People of the Spirit Versus People of the Flesh

                  In the Old Testament “flesh” could designate any mortal creature but especially designated human beings. It connoted weakness and mortality, especially when contrasted with God and his Spirit (Gen 6:3; Is 31:3; cf. Ps 78:39). By the New Testament period, this connotation of weakness was extended to moral weakness, as in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and could be translated “human susceptibility to sin,” or “self-centeredness” as opposed to “God-centeredness.” A life ruled by the flesh is a life dependent on finite human effort and resources, a selfish life as opposed to one directed by God’s Spirit. Paul’s use of “flesh” and “Spirit” refers to two spheres of existence—in Adam or in Christ—not to two natures in a person.

                  “Flesh” per se is not evil in the New Testament writings; Christ “became flesh” (Jn 1:14), though not “sinful flesh” (Rom 8:3). (The NIV translation “sinful nature” can be misleading, because some people today think of spirit and flesh as two natures within a person, whereas “Spirit” here is God’s Spirit—it is not a special part of a person but the power of God’s presence. Romans 7:15–25 describes a struggle of two aspects of human personality— reason and passions—trying to fulfill divine morality by human effort; but this struggle is not in view here, where people either live that struggle by the flesh or accept God’s gift of righteousness by the Spirit. The radical bifurcation of a human being into a morally upright “spiritual” part versus an immoral “bodily” part is a Neo-Platonic idea foreign to Paul. It was first introduced into the interpretation of the New Testament by Gnostics and would not have been the natural interpretation to Jewish readers or to Gentile Christians who knew about the Spirit.)

                  But flesh, mere bodily existence and human strength, is mortal and inadequate to stand against sin (which abuses bodily members that could have been harnessed instead by the Spirit). Although the term is used flexibly in the Bible, in one sense we are flesh (especially in the Old Testament use of the term); the problem is not that people are flesh but that they live life their own way instead of by God’s power and grace. The New Testament does sometimes distinguish the human body from the soul, but this distinction is not the point of the contrast between walking according to the flesh and walking according to the Spirit (8:4).

                  The Spirit especially anointed God’s people to prophesy in the Old Testament but also endowed them with power to do other things. Here, as in the Dead Sea Scrolls and occasionally in the Old Testament, the Spirit enables a person to live rightly (see especially Ezek 36:27). In Judaism, the Spirit indicated God’s presence; here the Spirit communicates the very presence, power and character of Christ.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

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                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                    To believe just means to accept that he has given you eternal life -- i.e., the very thing you deny.
                    Your level of intellectual dishonesty is staggering.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      FWIW, here are some relevant comments from Craig Keener's IVP Bible Background Commentary:

                      [box]The Struggle of Human Effort Under the Law

                      Many commentators have thought that 7:14–25 describes Paul’s struggle with sin at the time he was writing the passage, because he uses present-tense verbs. But diatribe style, which Paul uses in much of Romans, was graphic in its images, and Paul in the context has been describing his past life under law (7:7–13). Thus it is more likely that Paul contrasts the spiritual worthlessness of religious introspection and self-centeredness (count the “I’s” and “me’s”) in Romans 7 with the life of the Spirit by grace in Romans 6 and 8.
                      I don't think that is correct at all. First, how many times have you as a Christian thought as Paul did: The good that I want to do I don't, the evil that I don't want to do I do. This may not describe your christian walk, but it does mine. Second, Phil 3: If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the law, faultless.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        I don't think that is correct at all. First, how many times have you as a Christian thought as Paul did: The good that I want to do I don't, the evil that I don't want to do I do. This may not describe your christian walk, but it does mine.
                        Yes, my personal experience does reflect that portion of ch. 7. But even though I am broadly and loosely sympathetic to the "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" and the value of "experience," I try to not let it be my primary guide in interpreting Scripture. I tend to agree with Keener (and, FWIW, with Fee & Stuart in How to Study the Bible, Book by Book and Witherington in Paul's Letter to the Romans) that Paul is using rhetorical techniques to compare attempts to achieve righteousness by law sans Spirit in ch. 7 with life empowered by the Spirit in ch. 8.

                        If you and I find ch. 7 describes us better than ch. 8 does, perhaps we have significant problems to address.

                        Second, Phil 3: If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the law, faultless.
                        I'm not sure what your point is in quoting this. It's an isolated verse from an entirely different letter to a different congregation. The church at Rome did not have access to the letter to the Philippians -- not least because it was not yet written -- and in any case would have been expected to understand their own letter on its own terms.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by NorrinRadd
                          I tend to agree with Keener (and, FWIW, with Fee & Stuart in How to Study the Bible, Book by Book and Witherington in Paul's Letter to the Romans) that Paul is using rhetorical techniques to compare attempts to achieve righteousness by law sans Spirit in ch. 7 with life empowered by the Spirit in ch. 8.
                          He specifically mentions at the end of Chapter 7, and then repeats it in Chapter 8, that the temptations he is describing will remain a problem until the resurrection of the body of death. It doesn't have anything to do with "rhetorical techniques."

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            Yes, my personal experience does reflect that portion of ch. 7. But even though I am broadly and loosely sympathetic to the "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" and the value of "experience," I try to not let it be my primary guide in interpreting Scripture. I tend to agree with Keener (and, FWIW, with Fee & Stuart in How to Study the Bible, Book by Book and Witherington in Paul's Letter to the Romans) that Paul is using rhetorical techniques to compare attempts to achieve righteousness by law sans Spirit in ch. 7 with life empowered by the Spirit in ch. 8.

                            If you and I find ch. 7 describes us better than ch. 8 does, perhaps we have significant problems to address.
                            I think we all have significant problems when trying to live up to the example of Christ. Thank God for grace through faith...



                            I'm not sure what your point is in quoting this. It's an isolated verse from an entirely different letter to a different congregation. The church at Rome did not have access to the letter to the Philippians -- not least because it was not yet written -- and in any case would have been expected to understand their own letter on its own terms.
                            The point is that Paul kept the law. Your quote suggested that Paul "in the context" has been describing his past life under law. Yet He says in Phil. that he was faultless when it came to righteousness under the law.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              He specifically mentions at the end of Chapter 7, and then repeats it in Chapter 8, that the temptations he is describing will remain a problem until the resurrection of the body of death. It doesn't have anything to do with "rhetorical techniques."
                              Er, aren't 7 & 8 a chaism?
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                I think we all have significant problems when trying to live up to the example of Christ. Thank God for grace through faith...





                                The point is that Paul kept the law. Your quote suggested that Paul "in the context" has been describing his past life under law. Yet He says in Phil. that he was faultless when it came to righteousness under the law.
                                Er, Seer, that literally cannot mean morally pure - he'd have no need to present his sacrifices which as an observant Jew he certainly did. It must mean he was diligent in his observance - which affirms that he did regard himself as having sinned at that time - because he's making atonement at the Temple.

                                It doesn't mean he regarded following the law as salvic - he refutes that in Romans. The law showed his sin - it didn't cure it, not even when he was scrupulously observant.

                                And he didn't keep the law as he had previously - he was preaching to Gentiles in their homes.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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