Church nonessential?

[Charles]

[...] This appears to be part of "atheists bad" mantra. But it is a claim without substance.

Especially in these discussions in which part of the problem is rooted in some Christians' lack of concern for truth and science.

[seanD]

This seems to be arguing, "you can't blame the churches because they are not the only ones doing it." Excuse me? "Your honor, you can't convict me of murder because I'm not the only one doing it!" I think that argument would fail quickly.



And I maintain that any economic impact can be countered by neighbors, friends, family, and the various levels of government. We can share food, help those in need, and drive a sense of community out of tragedy. That is already happening. What we cannot do is breathe life back into those who die as a result of this pandemic.

You are wrong on both accounts.

[Charles]

You are wrong on both accounts.

And you provide no reasons for thinking so.

[seanD]

And you provide no reasons for thinking so.

I don't need to. It doesn't take a genius to figure out human nature, and the effects that we'll see in the coming months will prove he's just as delusional in his views about nonreligious belief as his understanding of economics.

[Charles]

I don't need to. It doesn't take a genius to figure out human nature, and the effects that we'll see in the coming months will prove he's just as delusional in his views about nonreligious belief as his understanding of economics.

When it comes to human nature your idea seems to be that churches are somehow excuses because others are doing it as well. It actually take a bit more of a genius than that to figure out what Carpe's point was.

With regard to economy I simply note that you still cannot support your claim but insist history will prove you right.

[carpedm9587]

You are wrong on both accounts.

Nicely structured argument...

Until you do more than assert it, especially in face of the evidence of the latter and the obvious logical structure of the former, I think I'll stay with my arguments.

[carpedm9587]

And you provide no reasons for thinking so.

Yeah... pretty much.

[seanD]

When it comes to human nature your idea seems to be that churches are somehow excuses because others are doing it as well. It actually take a bit more of a genius than that to figure out what Carpe's point was.

With regard to economy I simple note that you still cannot support your claim but insist history will prove you right.

The heck are you talking about here? The Market crashed 10,000 points this year. Millions of people are filing for unemployment and we've only begun the year. $1200 ain't gonna do a thing. Wait until folks can't pay their rent and buy food from month to month because they had no savings prior to this event. People don't come together and sing kumbaya. That's delusional. Folks naturally go into self-preservation mode and hoard like they're doing now, and we haven't even gotten the economic data yet. History will prove me right? Huh?

[carpedm9587]

When it comes to human nature your idea seems to be that churches are somehow excuses because others are doing it as well. It actually take a bit more of a genius than that to figure out what Carpe's point was.

With regard to economy I simply note that you still cannot support your claim but insist history will prove you right.

Current events are already proving him wrong, as more and more people step up and help out. Almost every state that is taking this seriously has a volunteer sign-up and people are signing up in the tens of thousands. Throughout the country, "we're in this together" is becoming a common theme. Heck - maybe this pandemic will be exactly what we need to break us free from this "us vs. them" mentality we have been locked in for so long.

And the first observation is simply logically sound. I have to assume he's waving it away because he has no response. I frankly don't see how he possibly could have a response beyond, "nuh uh!".

[seanD]

Current events are already proving him wrong, as more and more people step up and help out. Almost every state that is taking this seriously has a volunteer sign-up and people are signing up in the tens of thousands. Throughout the country, "we're in this together" is becoming a common theme. Heck - maybe this pandemic will be exactly what we need to break us free from this "us vs. them" mentality we have been locked in for so long.

And the first observation is simply logically sound. I have to assume he's waving it away because he has no response. I frankly don't see how he possibly could have a response beyond, "nuh uh!".

Aren't you contracting yourself. Remember this...

As I have said before - we will probably all have to accept some amount of pain to get this man out of the Oval Office. I didn't think it would be this. But then again, I was pretty sure we would be in a major war by now, so at least we haven't gone in that direction. But a few million deaths is an awful price to pay.

And that was in the context of the consequential effects of shutting down industry and the economy, the post you responded to.

[carpedm9587]

The heck are you talking about here? The Market crashed 10,000 points this year. Millions of people are filing for unemployment and we've only begun the year. $1200 ain't gonna do a thing. Wait until folks can't pay their rent and buy food from month to month because they had no savings prior to this event. People don't come together and sing kumbaya. That's delusional. Folks naturally go into self-preservation mode and hoard like they're doing now, and we haven't even gotten the economic data yet. History will prove me right? Huh?

80% of the U.S. population (the poorest 80%) own 6.7% of the stock. The vast majority of Americans own NO stocks. 70M Americans earn less than $25K a year - I doubt they are investing. So the fall in the stock market largely impacts the most wealthy - and the stock market is NOT the economy. It's a secondary market for investors.

Job loss is real, and GDP will contract. There is no doubt in my mind that we are going into a recession. And yes, some people will hoard and some people will steal. But it won't be most Americans. Most Americans will step up - and the harder it gets the more we will step up. We already are. I look around my community, and the number of people who have offered to help is absolutely heart-warming. Nobody is singing "kumbaya." What they ARE doing is cooking food for the hungry, helping the poor pay their bills, negotiating for extensions on responsibilities, etc. Monday, a group of us will gather and figure out how to observe social distancing and safe working as we repair the roof of a neighbor that was compromised by a falling branch (it's been temporarily patched to withstand the coming rain, and the materials needed have been ordered). Eventually, this will end and we'll look at it in the rear view mirror. I think most Americans will look back and say, "I did good!"

If your experience is different, maybe you need to find a different community.

[seanD]

80% of the U.S. population (the poorest 80%) own 6.7% of the stock. The vast majority of Americans own NO stocks. 70M Americans earn less than $25K a year - I doubt they are investing. So the fall in the stock market largely impacts the most wealthy - and the stock market is NOT the economy. It's a secondary market for investors.

Job loss is real, and GDP will contract. There is no doubt in my mind that we are going into a recession. And yes, some people will hoard and some people will steal. But it won't be most Americans. Most Americans will step up - and the harder it gets the more we will step up. We already are. I look around my community, and the number of people who have offered to help is absolutely heart-warming. Nobody is singing "kumbaya." What they ARE doing is cooking food for the hungry, helping the poor pay their bills, negotiating for extensions on responsibilities, etc. Monday, a group of us will gather and figure out how to observe social distancing and safe working as we repair the roof of a neighbor that was compromised by a falling branch (it's been temporarily patched to withstand the coming rain, and the materials needed have been ordered). Eventually, this will end and we'll look at it in the rear view mirror. I think most Americans will look back and say, "I did good!"

If your experience is different, maybe you need to find a different community.

You know nothing about how the markets work. The wealthy indeed own the markets (and that's certainly not a good thing, but it is what it is), but the markets sustain the main economy. When the market goes, so goes the rest of the economy. Why do you think the Fed is so beholden to the market, literally pumping billions of dollars a day, to the trillions in order to sustain it?

I guess we'll see if your delusional scenario is right or I'm right. Hope you're still around until then, but I suspect you'll disappear, or assume a different Tweb handle. I haven't forgotten about this post.

[simplicio]

Current events are already proving him wrong, as more and more people step up and help out. Almost every state that is taking this seriously has a volunteer sign-up and people are signing up in the tens of thousands. Throughout the country, "we're in this together" is becoming a common theme. Heck - maybe this pandemic will be exactly what we need to break us free from this "us vs. them" mentality we have been locked in for so long.

And the first observation is simply logically sound. I have to assume he's waving it away because he has no response. I frankly don't see how he possibly could have a response beyond, "nuh uh!".

"We are in this together"? If only...

Cuomo spent today explaining how shifting of medical supplies and equipment could work (the reality will be difficult to navigate), using the logistics to supply areas in great need (most of the state have few covid-19 cases), then returning the material when need arises. It is Republican assemblymen opposing this.

Cuomo will need to use the bully pulpit to push his idea, an idea which makes sense in this time of need.

[oxmixmudd]

Go on, bro, defend your atheist buddies. Show your true colors. And you did a terrible job doing it, btw. Fact is, it started in China, an ATHEISTIC country with an atheistic system and values, and then spread all around the globe, and then they lied about the facts (and probably still lying) in the aftermath. And yet your buddy wants to go on a tirade about Christian belief and its effect on the world. Ouch, that must really bother you.

There is no room for this sort of tribalism in Christian faith. We stand for the truth and with the truth, period. If you speak the truth I can stand with you, if you don't, I can't. So it doesn't matter if Xi is a Christian, an atheist, a bootlegger, a prostitute, a great leader, whatever you think he is. I will defend the truth about him, and I will rebuke a lie about him. It's that simple.

The origin of this virus has little to do with belief. It arose on its own.

The fact this virus made it into the broader world may be attributable to China's actions, maybe, maybe not. They did make mistakes. They did try to hide things. So maybe if they hadn't it would have taken longer to get here. But I doubt very much it would not have eventually gotten here. It is far more transmissible than SARS and MERS, and it has this nasty bit of not doing much of anything to some but being transmissible at the same time, creating lots and lots of 'typhoid Mary's'. Some people die a horrible death. Others think maybe, just maybe they have a mild cold.

But once here, their potential liability stops, and what happened here is our own governments fault, especially the leader that ignored the advice of the experts on what was needed to defeat it, and those efforts made to minimize or undermine our preparedness for a general pandemic before or during this administration.

But given so many in this country acted as buffoons and fools in terms of the response to this virus and were themselves Christians means that to try to blame this on an Atheist ideology when people living as Christians were even more foolish and stupid is insane. There are STILL Christians on this website trying to pretend this is no big deal!

As I outlined in my post, the is no rational reason to believe Xi is responsible for what has happened in the US or in the world. It is a naturally occurring virus, and any mistakes the Chinese government made containing it did not force us to be fools and ignore it for too long. That was our own doing.

[carpedm9587]

You know nothing about how the markets work. The wealthy indeed own the markets (and that's certainly not a good thing, but it is what it is), but the markets sustain the main economy. When the market goes, so goes the rest of the economy. Why do you think the Fed is so beholden to the market, literally pumping billions of dollars a day, to the trillions in order to sustain it?

I guess we'll see if your delusional scenario is right or I'm right. Hope you're still around until then, but I suspect you'll disappear, or assume a different Tweb handle. I haven't forgotten about this post.

Sean - I've been investing for 30+ years and have been an investment counselor before my current incarnation. I think I know a few things about the market. And your statement is false. Any economist will quickly tell you "the market is not the economy." It may be one of many bellweathers that signal economic changes, but it is not the economy. Indeed, the market can surge during a recession, and retreat during economic boom times - and has done so many times throughout its history. Generally, the economy will drive the market value, but the value of the market on any given day is highly impacted by just plain emotion and fear. In an ideal world, the value of the market will reflect the value of the companies that make it up - but that is almost never true. At best, the market is loosely tethered to the value of those businesses.

And the fed is not pumping billions of dollars into the stock market, Sean - it's pumping billions of dollars into the economy using a variety of tools. When it buys into the market, it is primarily buying debt securities like government bonds. When it pumps money into corporations - we tend to call that a bailout, which it has also done. It also pushes money into the economy by sending people checks, providing low cost loans to businesses, etc. Very rarely does it actually buy stocks in Company X (though it certainly has done so on occasion - e.g., the automotive bail-out and the banking bail-out).

I have never had a different name on Tweb, though I have stepped away for periods of time (twice, actually). I have no idea what your linked post has to do with the subject at hand, so I'll leave that to you. It accurately reflects what I think: I predicted we would all have to deal with pain before this man (Trump) was ushered out of office, and that is exactly what is happening on many fronts. It has been happening for 3+ years. My original statement was "accept some pain." Same difference. You and MM and Pix are pushing forward the lie that I "want us to suffer so Trump will lose." It's a lie. You have to decide if you want to continue to be a liar...or drop the false accusation. I leave that to you. Your words don't change the reality.