An infinite series of finite causes.

[Tassman]

A few points Tass, first why would the apathetic god of deism care about human rights? Second, this phrase Nature's God was borrowed from the English law scholar Blackstone, and that was a reference to the God of scripture. The point is, whether Deism or Theism the Founders did not ground human rights in the government or the majority.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The...ianity-1272214

The latter viewpoint is clearly a none-too subtle attempt by Evangelicals to support their own agenda via historical revision.

What are you talking about, as I referenced the majority of Founders were Christian.

Of course it was an invention, a legal fiction. A school district having voluntary was not only accepted for most of our history it is not a Congress (state or federal) making a LAW. No matter how you twist it Tass, it does not work.

Having Christian prayers in schools erroneously assumes that Christianity is the established religion of the USA. It is not. This is in violation of existing law, as the SCOTUS ruled: School-sponsored prayer violates the 'establishment of religion clause' in the U.S.

And what does the due process have to do with state sodomy laws?

Yes and no, the west did pretty much stop international Communism. Our biggest mistake was getting into bed with France after WW2 and supporting their return to Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh' was very open to the US and democracy in those early years.

Sadly the US and others including my own country, have a history of supporting powers that suit their own interests rather than those of the people, e.g. the French in Indo-China, Batista in Cuba, the Shah in Iran and Marcos in the Philippines spring to mind. These interference's rarely end well.

[seer]

Your own link does not settle the question, and only actually references a few of the Founders. If you look at Church records (as I referenced) the majority certainly were Christian, if you think they were Deists, then quote them (but you can not save a few). If you don't use Church records and attendance then it is on you to show that they did not take their Church affiliation seriously. Which you can't.


You are so myopic Tass. Again, where does Deism say that their god cares or even thinks about the rights of man. And Locke's Second Treatise, which was very influential with the Founders grounded rights in the God of the Bible and "Nature's God" came directly from the Christian writer Blackstone. But the point is Tass, both the Deist and Theist can agree that rights are God given. Not given by the state - that is the bottom line.

http://kevincraig.us/religion/nature.htm

Having Christian prayers in schools erroneously assumes that Christianity is the established religion of the USA. It is not. This is in violation of existing law, as the SCOTUS ruled: School-sponsored prayer violates the 'establishment of religion clause' in the U.S.

Then why did many of the Founders use tax monies to support State Churches? And again no, it is a legal fiction - how does it violate the establishment of religion clause if that clause is about CONGRESS MAKING A LAW? It doesn't and the leftist court just made it up.

I said sodomy laws - which can be applied to straights or gays.

Sadly the US and others including my own country, have a history of supporting powers that suit their own interests rather than those of the people, e.g. the French in Indo-China, Batista in Cuba, the Shah in Iran and Marcos in the Philippines spring to mind. These interference's rarely end well.

Well Batista and the Shah were better than what we ended up with.

[Tassman]

Your own link does not settle the question, and only actually references a few of the Founders. If you look at Church records (as I referenced) the majority certainly were Christian, if you think they were Deists, then quote them (but you can not save a few). If you don't use Church records and attendance then it is on you to show that they did not take their Church affiliation seriously. Which you can't.




You are so myopic Tass. Again, where does Deism say that their god cares or even thinks about the rights of man. And Locke's Second Treatise, which was very influential with the Founders grounded rights in the God of the Bible and "Nature's God" came directly from the Christian writer Blackstone. But the point is Tass, both the Deist and Theist can agree that rights are God given. Not given by the state - that is the bottom line.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The...ianity-1272214

Then why did many of the Founders use tax monies to support State Churches?

A lot was done during the period of the Continental Congresses which was subsequently overturned on appeal to the Constitution-based SCOTUS. At the final Continental Convention of 1787 the delegates decided to scrap the Articles of Confederation completely and create a new system of government. In 1789, the new U.S. Constitution went into effect and the Continental Congress adjourned forever along with its laws.

And again no, it is a legal fiction - how does it violate the establishment of religion clause if that clause is about CONGRESS MAKING A LAW? It doesn't and the leftist court just made it up.

The LAW already exists. The USA does not have an established religion. Hence, to have bible studies and Christian prayers in the schools implies that Christianity is the established religion of the USA. It is not as the SCOTUS has quite rightly so ruled.

I said sodomy laws - which can be applied to straights or gays.

Why would you want to stop anyone practising sodomy? Among hetero couples it was a common form of birth control before the advent of 'the pill'.

Well Batista and the Shah were better than what we ended up with.

Ya reckon?

[seer]

(FF Thomas Jefferson re Christianity) upon the USA but you are wrong. The Constitution, which superseded the Continental Conventions, was a secular document. It made no mention of Christianity or religion, other than the parts known as the "establishment clause" and the "free exercise clause", which respectively, comprise the textual basis for the Supreme Court's interpretations.

Tass, I'm not cherry picking anything, you are the one cherry picking quotes from Founders who seem to agree with you. The WHOLE point I'm making is that the Founders, Christian or Deist grounded rights in God, not in the state. And that ideal was not just made up from whole cloth, it has a pedigree in Christian writers like Locke and Blackstone. And if you actually took the time to watch the C-Span links (with secular historians) you would realize that our Constitution would not have come about without the Bible or Christian influence, whether the Constitution mentions Christianity or not. Those are the facts.

A lot was done during the period of the Continental Congresses which was subsequently overturned on appeal to the Constitution-based SCOTUS. At the final Continental Convention of 1787 the delegates decided to scrap the Articles of Confederation completely and create a new system of government. In 1789, the new U.S. Constitution went into effect and the Continental Congress adjourned forever along with its laws.

What are you talking about? Tax supported churches lasted into the 1840s. And the courts did not end them, the relative states did on their own.

The LAW already exists. The USA does not have an established religion. Hence, to have bible studies and Christian prayers in the schools implies that Christianity is the established religion of the USA. It is not as the SCOTUS has quite rightly so ruled.

Again Tass, you are the one, like the leftist courts, making stuff up. Reading into the Constitution things that just are not there. School prayer is not CONGRESS MAKING A LAW.Period...

Why would you want to stop anyone practising sodomy? Among hetero couples it was a common form of birth control before the advent of 'the pill'.

That would be for each state to decide, the point is sodomy laws are not inherently unconstitutional. I mean even your Jefferson instituted sodomy laws in Virginia. These were Biblical laws BTW.

[shunyadragon]

What happened to the thread topic????

[Tassman]

Tass, I'm not cherry picking anything, you are the one cherry picking quotes from Founders who seem to agree with you. The WHOLE point I'm making is that the Founders, Christian or Deist grounded rights in God, not in the state. And that ideal was not just made up from whole cloth, it has a pedigree in Christian writers like Locke and Blackstone. And if you actually took the time to watch the C-Span links (with secular historians) you would realize that our Constitution would not have come about without the Bible or Christian influence, whether the Constitution mentions Christianity or not. Those are the facts.

What are you talking about? Tax supported churches lasted into the 1840s. And the courts did not end them, the relative states did on their own.

The status quo remained until such time as things were abolished by the relevant states OR appealed in the Supreme Court, whereupon the States were invariable ruled against as unconstitutional.

Again Tass, you are the one, like the leftist courts, making stuff up. Reading into the Constitution things that just are not there. School prayer is not CONGRESS MAKING A LAW.Period...

School prayer is in contravention of the existing status of the Law, namely, that the USA has no established religion.

That would be for each state to decide, the point is sodomy laws are not inherently unconstitutional. I mean even your Jefferson instituted sodomy laws in Virginia. These were Biblical laws BTW.

[seer]

Sheesh Tass, have you ever actually read Locke? All rights are grounded in the God of Scripture, this is the very work that influenced the Founders. God as the source of our rights is mentioned all the way through. Here is just one example:

And reason, which is that
law, teaches anyone who takes the trouble to consult it, that
because we are all equal and independent, no-one ought to
harm anyone else in his life, health, liberty, or possessions.

This is because
http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/asse...locke1689a.pdf

The status quo remained until such time as things were abolished by the relevant states OR appealed in the Supreme Court, whereupon the States were invariable ruled against as unconstitutional.

No Tass, these things were not overturned by the courts until the leftist courts starting in the 1960s.

School prayer is in contravention of the existing status of the Law, namely, that the USA has no established religion.

Again, a school is still not the CONGRESS MAKING A LAW. School prayer does not violate the Constitution.

So Sodomy laws were were secular? Hardly, they have a long history in English common law, also influenced by Scripture.

[Tassman]

Sheesh Tass, have you ever actually read Locke? All rights are grounded in the God of Scripture, this is the very work that influenced the Founders. God as the source of our rights is mentioned all the way through.

No Tass, these things were not overturned by the courts until the leftist courts starting in the 1960s.

Again, a school is still not the CONGRESS MAKING A LAW. School prayer does not violate the Constitution.

"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means that neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church, pass laws which aid one religion over another, or prefer one religion over another. School prayer operates on the false assumption that Christianity is the preferred religion of the state.

So Sodomy laws were were secular? Hardly, they have a long history in English common law, also influenced by Scripture.

[seer]

Tass, this work of Locke which was grounded in Scripture was instrumental to the Founders understanding of human rights, you simply can not divorce that from our founding principles: https://www.bartleby.com/essay/John-...hers-FKWFR6ZVC

And do you really want a quote war? I literally have dozens if you would like, for instance:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1856), Vol. X, p. 254, to Thomas Jefferson on April 19, 1817.

Nonsense, you will not find one Founder what would have been against prayer in School. Many of the early public schools specifically use Scripture:

http://barlowvincentchurchofchrist.c...-1700-1900.pdf

http://vftonline.org/EndTheWall/Educ_Bible.htm

"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means that neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church, pass laws which aid one religion over another, or prefer one religion over another. School prayer operates on the false assumption that Christianity is the preferred religion of the state.

That is false, the Founders did in fact use tax monies to support the Christian religion. Never mind the fact AGAIN that school prayer is not CONGRESS MAKING A LAW.

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

[Tassman]

Tass, this work of Locke which was grounded in Scripture was instrumental to the Founders understanding of human rights, you simply can not divorce that from our founding principles: https://www.bartleby.com/essay/John-...hers-FKWFR6ZVC

In his Second Treatise of Government, Locke identified the basis of legitimate government. Namely that a ruler gains authority through the consent of the governed. The duty of that government is to protect the natural rights of the people, which Locke believed to include life, liberty, and property.

And do you really want a quote war? I literally have dozens if you would like.

Of course you do.

Nonsense, you will not find one Founder what would have been against prayer in School. Many of the early public schools specifically use Scripture:

That is false, the Founders did in fact use tax monies to support the Christian religion.

A lot was done during the interim period of the Continental Congresses that was later invalidated by the purely secular Constitution...as has been so ruled by the SCOTUS whenever they have been appealed by worthy bodies such as the 'Freedom From Religion Foundation'.

Never mind the fact AGAIN that school prayer is not CONGRESS MAKING A LAW.

[seer]

In his Second Treatise of Government, Locke identified the basis of legitimate government. Namely that a ruler gains authority through the consent of the governed. The duty of that government is to protect the natural rights of the people, which Locke believed to include life, liberty, and property.

Again Tass, actually read it yourself, I quoted it. Why do we have rights in the first place? Nature does not give us rights, only God does.

And reason, which is that
law, teaches anyone who takes the trouble to consult it, that
because we are all equal and independent, no-one ought to
harm anyone else in his life, health, liberty, or possessions.

This is because
we are all the work of one omnipotent and infinitely
wise makerwe are all the servants of one sovereign master, sent
into the world by his order to do his businesswe are all the property of him who made us, and he
made us to last as long as he chooses, not as long as
we choose;

and

By breaking the law of nature, the offender declares himself
to live by some rule other than that of reason and common
fairness, which is the standard that God has set for the
actions of men, for their mutual security; and so he becomes
dangerous to mankind because he has disregarded and
broken the tie that is meant to secure them from injury
and violence.

And that is the point that the Founders picked up from men like Locke and Blackstone (both Christian writers ), that rights come from God, not from the state or the majority.

Of course you do

.

Give me the word Tass, and I will be happy to just like the one I quoted from John Adams, which you ignored.



Except Jefferson was not the only Founder, and why did you ignore my quote from Adams: The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../03-06-02-0208

A lot was done during the interim period of the Continental Congresses that was later invalidated by the purely secular Constitution...as has been so ruled by the SCOTUS whenever they have been appealed by worthy bodies such as the 'Freedom From Religion Foundation'.

That is pure nonsense, we still have the Chaplain service, church taxes lasted into the mid 1800s, but the fact is the Continental Congresses (made up of Founding Fathers) not only referenced Jesus Christ in national days of prayer, they supported Christian endeavours with tax money. Strange for a bunch of DEISTS.


Where does the Constitution say that? It says CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW.

[shunyadragon]

What happened to the thread topic?!!?!

[Tassman]

Except Jefferson was not the only Founder, and why did you ignore my quote from Adams: [I][B]The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

http://www.azquotes.com/quotes/topic...s-atheist.html

Where does the Constitution say that? It says CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause

In defence to Shunya I will post no further on this subject in this thread.

[seer]

http://www.azquotes.com/quotes/topic...s-atheist.html

Yet from your own link:


The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity: John Adams


And John Jay who you reference said this was a Christian nation:

Almost all nations have peace or war at the will and pleasure of rulers whom they do not elect, and who are not always wise or virtuous. Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

Again nonsense, the Constitution is not addressing the source of human rights, the DoI does, and as I have shown those ideas came from Christian writes.


Yet these very Founders did in fact favor Christianity, using tax monies to do so. Strange for a bunch of Christian hating deists.

In defence to Shunya I will post no further on this subject in this thread.

I have Shuny on ignore, so I have no idea what he is babbling about now...

[Tassman]

Yet from your own link:


The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity: John Adams

Again nonsense, the Constitution is not addressing the source of human rights, the DoI does, and as I have shown those ideas came from Christian writes.

Yet these very Founders did in fact favor Christianity, using tax monies to do so. Strange for a bunch of Christian hating deists.

The members of the Continental Congresses did a lot that was subsequently invalidated by the purely secular Constitution which superseded them...as has been demonstrated by the rulings of the SCOTUS when challenged.

I have Shuny on ignore, so I have no idea what he is babbling about now...

It is foolish and counterproductive to put members on ignore is a discussion forum such as this, especially those with things of substance to contribute such as Shunya.