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The Concept of Privilege

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  • Originally posted by Joel View Post
    I agree with that distinction. Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting the former to be implicit bias either. (I said, "Could this also include things that do not create implicit bias...?")
    Just to double check: I understand you here to be saying that you are not saying we should/need to fix all disparities. Rather, you are focused only on fixing the problem of bias/prejudice. I think you said that too in your OP, separating out privileges of circumstance.

    Might it be difficulty to accurately identify where there is this implicit bias? Sure, where one can do a controlled experiment, one might reveal bias of particular persons in a particular place and time (e.g. a particular orchestra?). But it may be more difficult to identify it everywhere? From the above, we can see that from statistical disparities we cannot jump to the conclusion that the cause is bias. Nor can we make eliminating a disparity the measure of success.

    I think that's a big cause of people doubting the extent of bias. There has been a lot of claims of such and such disparity proves bias where it was later shown that the disparity was caused by other factors. After seeing a lot of that, people start to grow more suspicious of claims of bias. Which is going to make the work of raising awareness more difficult.
    Using the orchestra as an example, the observation began with a specific orchestra. Then multiple orchestras were examined and it was quickly shown that the phenomenon was widespread: it was the norm, not the exception. The same happened with pre-screening resumes. It began with stories about racial impacts in Uber and AirB&B that were reported in the press, and some began looking for the dynamic in other contexts, and found it in resume pre-screening. These are the patterns I think we should be looking for and tackling.

    But, so far, the approach is a symptomatic one: blinding the resumes and auditions addresses the symptom of racial/ethnic and gender bias, but it does not address the underlying "why does this happen?" So it is, in a way, a bandaid. If the underlying problem is deepr and wider, it can raise it's head again in the next screening stage, where "blinding" is not possible because you have to actually meet the candidate. Or it can surface in other contexts not related to hiring. It is these "why is this happening" that I think we truly have to look for.

    Implicit bias is a major candidate, but the articles someone linked me to (you?) seem to be pretty indicative that the link between implicit bias and overt action has not yet been quantified, so we cannot say that with certainty. It seems reasonable that, if we have these biases, they would impact our behavior, consciously or unconsciously. But it appears we do not have a solid, proven link.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Not only that....

      you have one kid where you tried to anticipate his obstacles and "fix" them for him, and eventually, he runs into something you haven't "fixed", you can't always be there to "fix" them, and has no idea how to move forward.

      you have another kid who grew up learning that there are inequities, challenges, problems, threats... and you teach him how to deal with them... when you're not there to "fix" things for him, he has the strength and experience and knowledge and determination to assess the problem and overcome.
      I have never talked about "fixing" something for "person X."
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        It only needs to be addressed if it's artificial. Otherwise it may or may not be unfair but it's not unjust.
        In a culture, how do you distinguish between something that is "artificial" and something that is not? Can you provide a couple examples of what you are thinking?
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
          Let's see post #1 of this thread!

          Sad!


          So you pull up a post that demonstrates I was not saying that parents doing what they should be doing needs fixing, and you find that sad?
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
            Why?
            Because none of us should be content with systemic injustices. I would take that as a given. Perhaps you do not.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I found it to be, CP. If you look at the pattern of this thread, the trend is for people to take an "offense" position against what I have been saying, and your "suck it up" comment certainly fit that pattern.
              The "pattern of this thread" is not a good indicator. There are individual posters, and we don't all think alike. I think you keep making overly broad statements, but honing in on particular aspects of what somebody said and making it over generalized as well.

              Yes, there are whiners in this world that need to get off their but and get moving.
              And, lest ye jump to conclusions, I'm certainly NOT saying that's all or even most poor people or any people.

              There are leaders that lead by example.
              Please provide some names of leaders - let's focus on the black community - who are challenging blacks to rise above the challenges.

              There are people who have overcome the systemic injustices and risen to greatness.
              And how many of those are leading the charge for others to do likewise? What are your best examples?

              Then there are the vast numbers who are beaten down by it on a regular basis. We should celebrate the former, and we should address the problems that create the latter.
              We'll see when you answer my questions.

              You spoke to one half of that equation - which comes across as a dismissal of the other half.
              And there ya go! I'm beginning to think you're 'makeup' requires you to see things this way... And I think this seems to be a common perception of liberal "assistance" --- liberals, in my view, tend to see poor little victims who are helpless without liberals "smoothing the way" and "fixing" everything. In a way, it goes back to the "give them a fish" or "teach them to fish".
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Do you initiate the racial part of the discussion? Is that ALL you discuss? I mean... it seems like you are, to an extent, race-centric.
                Actually, my example shave included gender (the orchestra), ethnicity (the resumes), and I have talked about sexual orientation and religion, as well as race. Most of the responses, however, focus on race, so that has dominated the conversation.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Because none of us should be content with systemic injustices. I would take that as a given. Perhaps you do not.
                  It's not an either/or.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    That has been happening to me a LOT lately -- maybe because I type so fast, but the last letter of one word jumps over to the beginning of the next!
                    Yeah, me too. It sometimes creates some amusing results, and sometimes it doe snot.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Actually, my example shave included gender (the orchestra), ethnicity (the resumes), and I have talked about sexual orientation and religion, as well as race. Most of the responses, however, focus on race, so that has dominated the conversation.
                      Thank you for all that, but how bout answering my question? Do you initiate these discussions? I mean... I interact with people every day from all kinds of backgrounds, and somehow we manage to talk about a whole bunch of things without every conversation coming back to social justice wargames.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Yes, my statement to MM was wrong. He's not the only one. There are indeed several of you and I wrote without thinking.

                        And I have, Sparko, acknowledged that there ARE people out there who run around screaming "racism" too often and without justification. I have even noted, on multiple occasions, this is a tendency of many on the left. I have also said, over and over again, that privilege is not limited to any given race, any given gender, etc., etc.
                        yes you have said that. Basically your concept of privilege is so generalized as to have no meaning. If everyone has various privileges that others don't then it means nothing. It all evens out. I might be disadvantaged in one area and you might be in another. Like CP says, "Life isn't fair" - get over yourself.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          I once worked at a TV station that hired a part-time sales intern who looked like a supermodel. Within six-months, she was the top sales associate. Working part-time! Ugly sales people couldn't keep up, so what should have been done to mitigate the intern's unfair advantage? Reduce her commission? Redistribute her commission to the less attractive staff? Reduce her work hours? Demand that she put on an additional 200-pounds?

                          Let's hear some solutions, people, because this injustice should not have been allowed to stand!
                          Obviously you needed an affirmative action program where you have to hire two ugly people to replace the one pretty one.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            I once worked at a TV station that hired a part-time sales intern who looked like a supermodel. Within six-months, she was the top sales associate. Working part-time! Ugly sales people couldn't keep up, so what should have been done to mitigate the intern's unfair advantage? Reduce her commission? Redistribute her commission to the less attractive staff? Reduce her work hours? Demand that she put on an additional 200-pounds?

                            Let's hear some solutions, people, because this injustice should not have been allowed to stand!
                            This is an excellent question. To what degree is the success of "good looking people" an "injustice?" This is a great example of something not being a clear case of social injustice, yet possibly containing some elements of it. So, the good looking sales person will, all other skills being even, tend to out-perform a person who does not have those good looks. Why? Because we are attracted to beauty, as a function of how the human mind works. Is that reality an injustice in an of itself. No, I don't think so, but it can become one under the right (wrong?) circumstances. Therefore, I would definitely advocate for elements in K-12, college, and hiring/training programs that addresses the "don't judge a book by its cover," problem. In my experience, the first step to dealing with a potential problem is to make people aware it exists.

                            Then, within companies, we can address "beauty bias" by making sure our advancement criteria are merit-based. If a sales manager refuses to hire people they find unattractive because their chance of success is statistically lower - that is a problem. It discriminates against the individual based on a statistic about the group. But, as I said, I don't necessarily see a problem that needs fixing just because a good looking person succeeds.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              The "pattern of this thread" is not a good indicator. There are individual posters, and we don't all think alike. I think you keep making overly broad statements, but honing in on particular aspects of what somebody said and making it over generalized as well.

                              And, lest ye jump to conclusions, I'm certainly NOT saying that's all or even most poor people or any people.

                              Please provide some names of leaders - let's focus on the black community - who are challenging blacks to rise above the challenges.
                              I'm not sure why you need this list from me, but I would include Obama, King (not sure if you count historic figures), Winfried, Mandella, Ali, Angelou, Chisholm, Douglas, Hughes, Franklin, Parks, Ellington, Jackson, Jordan, Poitier, Robinson, Truth, Tubman, Jay Z, and Wonder on that list.

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              And how many of those are leading the charge for others to do likewise? What are your best examples?
                              I don't limit this to living people, because I think people can "lead" by the examples of their lives, even after they are gone. But the active leaders, to varying degrees, would be the living people on that list.

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              We'll see when you answer my questions.

                              And there ya go! I'm beginning to think you're 'makeup' requires you to see things this way... And I think this seems to be a common perception of liberal "assistance" --- liberals, in my view, tend to see poor little victims who are helpless without liberals "smoothing the way" and "fixing" everything. In a way, it goes back to the "give them a fish" or "teach them to fish".
                              CP, go back over this thread, which I intentionally started to try to restart the failed attempt in the other thread, and carefully outlined the views to attempt to avoid "trigger" words. The bulk of the responses (excepting Joel) have been denials that any of this actually exists, attacks on calling people "racist" or claims I am advocating for "guilt" or "self-loathing." The impression I am getting, on the basis of the responders here, is that this is an issue the right in general (as exemplified by folks here, as well as what I see on other fora and in the news) simply does not want to look at this, or acknowledge there are problems to be addressed. The mantra is "get off your butt and 'suck it up.' "

                              When injustices occur/exist, we are morally obligated to do what we can to address them. People DO need to get up and move and not just sit back and whine, AND we need to address the injustices. But the posts here are predominantly about affirming the former, and denying that there is anything that needs to be done about the latter.
                              Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-02-2018, 09:15 AM.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                It's not an either/or.
                                No it's not. So why are the vast majority of responses here about denying there are problems that needs to be fixed, and emphasizing the need for those on the receiving end of those injustices to "suck it up?"
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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