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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    There is sometimes ambiguity in the texts which the unscrupulous exploit to sway the credulous, sometimes the ambiguity will be misapplied by mistake. Sometimes there is no ambiguity and the text will simply be turned into a dog's breakfast - and that will be considered believable by people with an agenda.

    In the case of slavery, there is some ambiguity which takes a lot of effort to resolve. In the case of women in positions of leadership, there is some ambiguity which can be resolved with almost no effort. In the case of homosexual relationships, there is no ambiguity ... it is not approved for Christians, which means that a Christian has no business engaging in or giving even tacit approval for the practice..
    Yes, so IF somebody actually wanted to justify slavery with scripture, they'd have to hunt for specific verses or passages that might suggest it's acceptable, since there's no command to own slaves, and they'd have to ignore the vast work of the New Testament about how we treat one another. There is no doubt that there are those who used the "Curse of Ham" to justify slavery, but there were many others who made no attempt whatsoever to justify it - they just did it because they saw it as economically necessary.

    On the other hand, somebody who wants to justify homosexuality has to avoid prohibitions and pronouncements against it, and turn their argument to "God is accepting" or "Jesus never spoke against it" or other arguments from silence like "It's not in the Big Ten!"

    Mayor Pete, from everything I can tell, is in that latter group. He just ignores scripture and creates his very own Jesus.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Yes, so IF somebody actually wanted to justify slavery with scripture, they'd have to hunt for specific verses or passages that might suggest it's acceptable, since there's no command to own slaves, and they'd have to ignore the vast work of the New Testament about how we treat one another. There is no doubt that there are those who used the "Curse of Ham" to justify slavery, but there were many others who made no attempt whatsoever to justify it - they just did it because they saw it as economically necessary.

      On the other hand, somebody who wants to justify homosexuality has to avoid prohibitions and pronouncements against it, and turn their argument to "God is accepting" or "Jesus never spoke against it" or other arguments from silence like "It's not in the Big Ten!"

      Mayor Pete, from everything I can tell, is in that latter group. He just ignores scripture and creates his very own Jesus.
      Peter the Apostle had something to say about it too.

      2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        There is no doubt that there are those who used the "Curse of Ham" to justify slavery, but there were many others who made no attempt whatsoever to justify it - they just did it because they saw it as economically necessary.
        Those who saw slavery as "not a wrong" and had any sort of commitment to Christianity would also have (as did that author of "Amazing Grace" for a time) considered the humane and even kind treatment of slaves as mandatory. Not all would have made the leap, that the said author made, to realising that slavery could not possibly be justified by scripture and respond by discarding the secular moral compass and to reject slave ownership.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • The truth is, the bible neither condones nor condemns slavery. It just reported it as happening and God gave rules on how to treat slaves and under what circumstances they should be let free.

          Comment


          • There is at least tacit (and I would argue more than just tacit) approval for owning slaves in the Old Testament, but without any underpinning in the New. As CP noted (sort of), argument against slavery is pretty much based on logical extrapolation of what is present in the New Testament.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              The truth is, the bible neither condones nor condemns slavery. It just reported it as happening and God gave rules on how to treat slaves and under what circumstances they should be let free.
              The Bible (in both Testaments) does condemn "manstealing" which slavery in the US was based on.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                The Bible (in both Testaments) does condemn "manstealing" which slavery in the US was based on.
                Yep. the Slavery in the bible (at least what the Israelites practiced) was more of captured prisoners of war, and debt slavery, where someone was enslaved until they could work off their debts. They didn't have long term prisons back then like we do now. So instead of prison terms, they made people slaves. But they had rules on how they had to be treated and eventually let go.

                Comment


                • Prisoners of war weren't subject to the provisions against man-stealing, which is to say that taking slaves in such circumstances wasn't man-stealing.
                  There was no requirement that prisoners of war ever be manumitted.
                  It was stock standard slavery - albeit with provisos that no slave be mistreated.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Yep. the Slavery in the bible (at least what the Israelites practiced) was more of captured prisoners of war, and debt slavery, where someone was enslaved until they could work off their debts.
                    Weren't most enemies to be killed rather than captured?
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Weren't most enemies to be killed rather than captured?
                      Probably, but they still took prisoners. Sometimes women and children.

                      Got also let them buy slaves from foreign lands.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Probably, but they still took prisoners. Sometimes women and children.

                        Got also let them buy slaves from foreign lands.
                        Got any cites for these? AFAIR, they could only allow prepubescent girls to live (Num. 31).
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Got any cites for these? AFAIR, they could only allow prepubescent girls to live (Num. 31).
                          not off the top of my head, but wasn't that part of the problem with the Israelites? Instead of killing everyone they kept letting them live among them and they started worshiping the gods of those people?

                          Comment


                          • Not prepubescent girls - virgins (though in the time and place, that might be a moot point.) And that instruction was specific to a single campaign against Midian.
                            Joshua 9:19-27, Lev 25:44-45
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              not off the top of my head, but wasn't that part of the problem with the Israelites? Instead of killing everyone they kept letting them live among them and they started worshiping the gods of those people?
                              If you're arguing based on what scripture told the Israelites to do....
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                If you're arguing based on what scripture told the Israelites to do....
                                I was actually agreeing that slavery in the old testament wasn't the chattel slavery of the USA. You just glommed on to one word in my post. Sure I could be wrong about prisoners, but that wasn't my point.

                                Comment

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