Immutability of God.

[Marta]

I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.

are we starting from this post or your recent end post? By sola Scriptura Protestants mean that Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source for all doctrine and practice (faith and morals). Sola Scriptura implies several things. First, the Bible is a direct revelation from God. As such, it has divine authority. For what the Bible says, God says.

[37818]

are we starting from this post or your recent end post? . . .

There was the intent of the OP. But it was moved from the Apologetics 301 to here in Unorthodox Theology.

So their is the topic of the OP and their are sub topics which come up in the discussion. My unstated intent was and is to argue a necessity of the Trinity. Any theology without the three entities/Persons who are the One God would not even be God.

By sola Scriptura Protestants mean that Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source for all doctrine and practice (faith and morals). Sola Scriptura implies several things. First, the Bible is a direct revelation from God. As such, it has divine authority. For what the Bible says, God says.

Ok. And unless sola scriptura is true then you have other sources for the word of God saying what that faith and practice must be.

[Marta]

[QUOTE]

There was the intent of the OP. But it was moved from the Apologetics 301 to here in Unorthodox Theology.

So their is the topic of the OP and their are sub topics which come up in the discussion. My unstated intent was and is to argue a necessity of the Trinity. Any theology without the three entities/Persons who are the One God would not even be God.

So I can understand this, you're saying that there is a necessity of the Trinity but yet, without the study of religious faith, practice, and experience : the study of God and God's relation to the world the three entities/persons would not be God. I hope I wrote this right.

John 10:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” and yet, we understand from the Cross References in Deuteronomy 6:4,"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" So if God is One - and Jesus is claiming to be within this unity of "one" he then is a part of Him - or comes from Him."

John 16:28, "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." (see John 8:17)


Understand this verse for me: 1 John 5: 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.…

The original law: Laws of Landmark and Testimony

14“You shall not move your neighbor’s boundary mark, which the ancestors have set, in your inheritance which you will inherit in the land that the LORD your God gives you to possess.

15“A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. 16“If a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrongdoing, 17then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who will be in office in those days. 18“The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely, 19then you shall do to him just as he had intended to do to his brother. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you. 20“The rest will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such an evil thing among you. 21“Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Ok. And unless sola scriptura is true then you have other sources for the word of God saying what that faith and practice must be.

You're getting into Orthodox territory with this thought -

What I mean by this is that the reform movement (of Judaism) always disputed the authority of the Torah and the law - didn't they? How much different is that thought to our faith and beliefs. What to follow and what not to follow - who has authority and who doesn't in matters of faith and belief. Unless someone digs it up and finds out through varies artifacts that it is either wrong or right, will they come to believe????

direct quote:


*another thought – The chief purpose of man on earth from the point of view of The Torah is not metaphysical speculation or abstract thought, but moral action. 'Not what man, thinks of God is of primary importance, but what God thinks of man and wants him to do,' was a favourite saying of Hirsch. The Jew will never find the directive for his actions in idle philosophical speculation, but in the study of the Torah and its laws (cf.S.R.Hirsch,, Commentary on Exod.xxxiii, 21; Commentary on Ps. ciii, 3 ;Gesammelte
Schriften, Vol.Ill, p.451).

We have a passage written by the Apostle Paul - 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

[37818]

So I can understand this, you're saying that there is a necessity of the Trinity but yet, without the study of religious faith, practice, and experience : the study of God and God's relation to the world the three entities/persons would not be God. I hope I wrote this right.

<snip>

I am not sure that I understand what you meant in that last part of what you wrote in the above..

God being necessarily being a Trinity, this would be true regardless whether one studied the written word of God (NT) from which traditional discovery of the Trinity is based.

[Marta]

I am not sure that I understand what you meant in that last part of what you wrote in the above..

God being necessarily being a Trinity, this would be true regardless whether one studied the written word of God (NT) from which traditional discovery of the Trinity is based.

So I can understand this, you're saying and not I'm saying.

[Marta]

I am not sure that I understand what you meant in that last part of what you wrote in the above..

God being necessarily being a Trinity, this would be true regardless whether one studied the written word of God (NT) from which traditional discovery of the Trinity is based.

Regarding the passage from out of the New Testament - to document: Regarding two or three witness, Deuteronomy 19:15 and 1 John 5:6, This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.…


Deuteronomy 30:19 and Deut. 4:26, I call heaven and earth as witnesses. Same breath.....as, Romans 10:18, "But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

Two or Three witnesses - can be from various sources.

[37818]

So I can understand this, you're saying and not I'm saying.

Yes, I am making the argument that the Trinity with the Godhead is true whether we understand it from the written witness of the NT or not. And can be shown necessary by reason of creation itself being a mutable [a change] in being a finite and temporal act from God, God being immutable, eternal and infinite.

[Marta]

Yes, I am making the argument that the Trinity with the Godhead is true whether we understand it from the written witness of the NT or not. And can be shown necessary by reason of creation itself being a mutable [a change] in being a finite and temporal act from God, God being immutable, eternal and infinite.

What do you mean by saying, "The Trinity with the Godhead" - ? The Trinity is referred to as the Godhead - isn't it? English term “Godhead” has come to represent the idea that the “Divine” essence is shared by three distinct Personalities and the Latin, trinus, means “three-fold" or the “three” divine Persons who function as an absolute unity. John 10:30 New International Version (NIV) 30 I and the Father are one.” ...(previous passage) 7* So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 * All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly."


When speaking of two or three witness to testify to the truth we have John the Baptist (John 1:27,)Abraham (John 8:56) and Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17). As in the same breath, Heaven and Earth were the Witness for [Moses] calling upon heaven and earth to be witnesses of the agreement that the Israelites accepted, "And let the earth hear" [to be similarly understood]. Now why did [Moses] call upon heaven and earth to be witnesses [for warning Israel]? Moses said: "I am [just] flesh and blood. Tomorrow I will die. If Israel says, 'We never accepted the covenant', who will come and refute them?"


....Romans 10:18, "But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

Moses, in scripture, voiced it, "1"Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth. 2"Let my teaching drop as the rain, My speech distill as the dew, As the droplets on the fresh grass And as the showers on the herb. 3"For I proclaim the name of the LORD; Ascribe greatness to our God!…" Deuteronomy 32:2

It was a call to hear and listen - Mark 12:29-30, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord, 30and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’…

[37818]

What do you mean by saying, "The Trinity with the Godhead" - ? The Trinity is referred to as the Godhead - isn't it? English term “Godhead” has come to represent the idea that the “Divine” essence is shared by three distinct Personalities and the Latin, trinus, means “three-fold" or the “three” divine Persons who function as an absolute unity. John 10:30 New International Version (NIV) 30 I and the Father are one.” ...(previous passage) 7* So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 * All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. 10 A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly."


When speaking of two or three witness to testify to the truth we have John the Baptist (John 1:27,)Abraham (John 8:56) and Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17). As in the same breath, Heaven and Earth were the Witness for [Moses] calling upon heaven and earth to be witnesses of the agreement that the Israelites accepted, "And let the earth hear" [to be similarly understood]. Now why did [Moses] call upon heaven and earth to be witnesses [for warning Israel]? Moses said: "I am [just] flesh and blood. Tomorrow I will die. If Israel says, 'We never accepted the covenant', who will come and refute them?"


....Romans 10:18, "But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

Moses, in scripture, voiced it, "1"Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth. 2"Let my teaching drop as the rain, My speech distill as the dew, As the droplets on the fresh grass And as the showers on the herb. 3"For I proclaim the name of the LORD; Ascribe greatness to our God!…" Deuteronomy 32:2

It was a call to hear and listen - Mark 12:29-30, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord, 30and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’…

Trinity is the name of the explanation of the Godhead being God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit that they are the One YHWH.

The Father is the Source where the Son is that very Light of that Source (True God, John 17:3; True Light John 1:9; Hebrews 1:3; John 17:5; Isaiah 42:8).

John 1:3,
. . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .

To claim that God does anything apart from the Son is to deny the Trinity. All that the Son does is because of the Father (John 5:18-23). You cannot have the acts of God without the Son (John 1:3). To deny one is to deny the other - they are YHWH.

[Marta]

Trinity is the name of the explanation of the Godhead being God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit that they are the One YHWH.

The Father is the Source where the Son is that very Light of that Source (True God, John 17:3; True Light John 1:9; Hebrews 1:3; John 17:5; Isaiah 42:8).

John 1:3,
. . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .

To claim that God does anything apart from the Son is to deny the Trinity. All that the Son does is because of the Father (John 5:18-23). You cannot have the acts of God without the Son (John 1:3). To deny one is to deny the other - they are YHWH.

OK, the Trinity is the name of the explanation of the Godhead. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to understand this as the Trinity or the Godhead, instead of, the Trinity with the Godhead?

the Godhead being God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit that they are the One YHWH - Right, the Trinity or the Godhead.

[Marta]

I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.

Aquinas clearly distinguished between eternity and temporality. He said that eternity exists with no beginning, no succession, and no end while temporality has a beginning, succession, and an end.

The argument here is within this statement: God created the temporal world; the Incarnation involved God joining human flesh in the temporal world.

Using scripture to point this fact out:

"Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Haran. When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. He had a dream in which he saw a stairway/ladder resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it."


Statement: In this vision Jacob sees something similar to a ladder or a stairway (Hebrew word: sullam) which signifies a connection between God and man. In this instance, it was God who provided the means necessary to link Himself to man as opposed to the men of Babel in Genesis 11 who tried to reach heaven by their own actions, aside from the help of God.

This connection with God and man, and shown in your picture, is the bridge that crosses the two together. Like the picture we see in Michelangelo (creation of Adam) - This touch will not only give life to Adam, but will give life to all mankind. God is shown in a state that is not untouchable and remote from Man, but one which is accessible to him. Christ was that bridge and light to all mankind, like John 1 states - and is the essence of the subject - The Word Became Flesh.

Jesus points this out with Nicodemus, 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

and also, in Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." The flesh is temporal where as the spirit is eternal - meaning that the spirit returns back to the eternal God. Atemporality means "without succession of time or activity that could include the existence of infinite time dimensions with no distinction between the past, present, and future." Also, the term temporal means "within a succession of time or activity." As in, The LORD said, "My Spirit will not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; yet will his days be one hundred twenty years." Genesis 6:3

[Marta]

Reference: The Trinity, Simultaneity, Temporality, and Riemannian Geometry

[37818]

Your post consists of multiple arguments. Which is fine. But Iam going to look at the first.

Aquinas clearly distinguished between eternity and temporality. He said that eternity exists with no beginning, no succession, and no end while temporality has a beginning, succession, and an end.

<snip>

Eternity can have a temporal component. The Son of God from eternity was not human and now into eternity is human. Human is temporal. The Son of God is now an immortal human who as a human has a beginning. Being both eternal from the past now temporal being human too.

So either there was an end to full immutability or what ended was also always temporal in nature too. Being always immutable being God and was always temporal in nature being with God.

In any case the Logos was both "with" and "was" God and still is. What changed was how the Logos was "with" God two times. Immortal to mortal back to immortal again permanently.

Keeping in mind, never ceasing being God too.

The Logos was made flesh (John 1:14). He was the only one to do it (John 1:3). And that was a change,

[Marta]

Your post consists of multiple arguments. Which is fine. But Iam going to look at the first.

Eternity can have a temporal component. The Son of God from eternity was not human and now into eternity is human. Human is temporal. The Son of God is now an immortal human who as a human has a beginning. Being both eternal from the past now temporal being human too.

So either there was an end to full immutability or what ended was also always temporal in nature too. Being always immutable being God and was always temporal in nature being with God.

In any case the Logos was both "with" and "was" God and still is. What changed was how the Logos was "with" God two times. Immortal to mortal back to immortal again permanently.

Keeping in mind, never ceasing being God too.

The Logos was made flesh (John 1:14). He was the only one to do it (John 1:3). And that was a change,

As the law is eternal and was given at Mount Horeb. Divine lawPsalm 119:89, 89 Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven. 90 Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands.…

"Divine law is any law that comes directly from the "will of God", in contrast to man-made law. Unlike natural law, which is independent of human beings, divine laws are totally dependent on human narrators and closely related to different cultures; they may change in human perception in time through new revelation, however, divine laws are eternal and constant, not subject to change. Divine laws are contained in sacred religious texts such as the Torah, the Holy Bible, and Quran."

"In Thomas Aquinas's Treatise on Law, divine law comes only from revelation or scripture, hence biblical law, and is necessary for human salvation. According to Aquinas, divine law must not be confused with natural law. Divine law is mainly and mostly natural law, but it can also be positive law."

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

[37818]

God giving His written Law to man was a temporal and finite act of God. From God who is infinite and immutable. And was done by way of His eternal Son and His holy messengers.

At issue. God always was and is. Creation being a unique finite temporal act from God constitutes a change. God did not change, so there has to also always been a finite and temporal Cause with God. We know Him to be the Son (John 1:1-3).