Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    A good example of why we don't want gun registration in the USA.

    Wow, 700 out of 1.5 Million? It's almost as if New Zealanders don't agree with their government or something.

    Hopefully NZ will take notice of the mass objection and repeal their idiotic ban.
    700 targeted weapons out of an unknown number of targeted weapons. There are 1.5 million guns overall - but they are not all banned.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      According to Radio New Zealand, a Crown entity so they're pretty much an official source, the buyback program began right after the law was enacted back in March and as of July 4 a whole 1000 firearms have been turned in of the estimated 1.2 to 1.5 million guns in private hands.
      Most types of guns aren't subject to the buy-back and will remain legal so the 1.2 million gun figure is largely irrelevant. The estimated relevant number is 250-300k.

      Apparently 1000 goody-goods have pre-emptively sent in their guns to the police. But the first actual official gun-drop for the buyback is opening tomorrow in Christchurch. The article I linked says police in the Christchurch region have had 1415 online notifications from people in the Christchurch region wanting to drop off their guns. There are 258 such gun-drop events scheduled around the country in the coming months. If those 1415 pre-notified guns are dropped off tomorrow, and the other 257 events have on average the same turnout, then ~365k guns will be returned, which would be impressive given it's higher than the estimated number of relevant guns in circulation. So by current metrics the buyback looks like it's going to be entirely successful.

      It looks like their buyback has been as big a failure as the ones that have taken place here in the U.S.
      Maybe wait until at least the first buyback event has been held before declaring failure? Literally in 24 hours we will have some more data.

      Though, again, as I said previously, the point of the law is to reduce the probability that a future terrorist can get their hands on weapons capable of killing large numbers of people. The law will achieve that, regardless of the number of people who take advantage of the gun buy-back. Even if 100% of the gun-owners decide to hide their now-banned types of gun rather than sell them, to the extent that the law removes the ability of future terrorists to simply walk into a gun shop and buy semi-automatic weaponry with large capacity, or easily obtain such weaponry on standard trading sites (Ebay equivalents), it is successful. Every single weapon handed in is therefore more success, as it means less and less probability of a future terrorist being able to get their hands on such weaponry. There's not really such a thing as failure here.

      If buybacks in the US had been as big a failures as you claim, I suspect you wouldn't be so over-the-top insecure about New Zealand's buyback possibly being as successful as Australia's similar one was, such that you feel the need to make a fool of yourself by pretending to everyone it's failed before it's started.
      Last edited by Starlight; 07-12-2019, 07:09 AM.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        700 targeted weapons out of an unknown number of targeted weapons. There are 1.5 million guns overall - but they are not all banned.
        erm, we don't actually know how many guns are in NZ. We don't register guns. We register the owners.
        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
        1 Corinthians 16:13

        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
        -Ben Witherington III

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Raphael View Post
          I actually sit pretty dead center on most "where are you politically" type polls...
          I am seriously considering giving my party vote to the New Conservative Party if they start polling high enough to have a chance of getting in.


          I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't vote NZF? They're socially conservative, economically centrist. That's about what you see yourself as right?

          You're doing that thing again where you assume that because I am on the right politically (I actually sit pretty dead center on most "where are you politically" type polls) I have to agree with everything the major political party on the right does.
          Actually, I was critiquing you because you were selectively blaming leftist parties (and calling Labour and Greens idiots). National was involved in crafting the bill too. It had members on the select committee that tweaked it.

          It still doesn't change the fact that the the law was hastily and badly crafted by the Greens, Labour and NZF.
          Again you repeat this and leave out National? With bipartisan legislation like this, all parties are given significant influence in the writing and tweaking of the law, not just the final voting. The idea is to make sure that the next government won't simply toss the law out as soon as they win, and that's achieved by giving them input into writing it.

          While it was passed quickly, both the previous National and Labour governments had been tossing around bills on the subject of gun reform for years. There's been plenty of background work done. The gun-lobby was able to exert enough influence to prevent those bills coming to a vote though. But in the wake of the Christchurch shooting, the politicians could see a path forward in spite of the gun-lobby, so they just grabbed their previous bills out of the drawer and dusted them off, compared their notes, and then passed it. So I don't think it's fair to claim the law has flaws resulting from its rapid passage. If it does turn out to have some flaws, nothing stops the govt from quickly passing fixes.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
            I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't vote NZF? They're socially conservative, economically centrist. That's about what you see yourself as right?
            might have something to do with the fact that Winston is a lying, thieving, traitor. (not to mention drunkard). Shane Jones is a bully boy. Tracey Martin does just plain nasty as her default response to anything. Ron Mark is a [censored].

            Originally posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
            Actually, I was critiquing you because you were selectively blaming leftist parties (and calling Labour and Greens idiots). National was involved in crafting the bill too. It had members on the select committee that tweaked it.
            I am blaming them because at the end of the day, they're the ones in power

            Originally posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
            Again you repeat this and leave out National? With bipartisan legislation like this, all parties are given significant influence in the writing and tweaking of the law, not just the final voting. The idea is to make sure that the next government won't simply toss the law out as soon as they win, and that's achieved by giving them input into writing it.
            Because the time frame was set by our Glorious Leader. It's still a badly thought out stupid law.
            And I think you are not comprehending how much I despise our Coalition of Losers.

            Originally posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
            While it was passed quickly, both the previous National and Labour governments had been tossing around bills on the subject of gun reform for years. There's been plenty of background work done. The gun-lobby was able to exert enough influence to prevent those bills coming to a vote though. But in the wake of the Christchurch shooting, the politicians could see a path forward in spite of the gun-lobby, so they just grabbed their previous bills out of the drawer and dusted them off, compared their notes, and then passed it. So I don't think it's fair to claim the law has flaws resulting from its rapid passage. If it does turn out to have some flaws, nothing stops the govt from quickly passing fixes.
            Please, there was barely any time for public consultation.
            Most people I've talked (and I know people on both sides of the political spectrum who are gun owners) think that it's a stupid law.
            Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
            1 Corinthians 16:13

            "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
            -Ben Witherington III

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Raphael View Post
              might have something to do with the fact that Winston is a lying, thieving, traitor. (not to mention drunkard). Shane Jones is a bully boy. Tracey Martin does just plain nasty as her default response to anything. Ron Mark is a [censored].
              I've met Tracey Martin in person. She seemed nice. I thought at the time, if NZF hadn't turned me off them for life due to other failings, I would consider voting for them because she seemed sensible. Sad to hear she's nasty in general.

              Because the time frame was set by our Glorious Leader.
              I strongly dislike cults of leadership. Unfortunately in all countries people tend to vote based on the party leader. It was painful under Key and it's painful under Jacinda.

              And I think you are not comprehending how much I despise our Coalition of Losers.
              Hmm, it's clear you dislike them. I find it hard to fathom entirely why. I can see why someone might think the ACT MP is a bit of a joke. I can see why someone might have strong opinions of the personal failings of NZF above - Winston is generally the most personally polarizing politician in NZ, and Shane Jones has a bad record. I can see why someone might think many / most of the National MPs are jerks and idiots as they range from utter dufuses like Gerry Brownlee, to front-stabbers like Judith Collins, to random nutters like Jami-Lee Ross, to the ever-ineffectual Simon Bridges. But in the Labour and Green parties there's really just not as many horrible personalities or idiotic people... the Green party are a bunch of well-intentioned do-gooders who seem not only competent at science and economics but good at using them to inform their policies, and Labour seem like a bunch of well-intentioned but dithering centrists who are never quite sure if they want to be National-lite with their policies or Green-lite, and for a while everyone in Labour wanted to be the leader of their party but they seem to have sorted themselves out now. And while Labour does occasionally seem to feature some underwhelming ministerial performances like any government does, neither Labour nor the Greens seem to have the sort of cut-throat polarizing extremist in-it-for-myself personalities that are standard-issue in National and NZF. So I don't think your dislike of them is rational.

              Most people I've talked (and I know people on both sides of the political spectrum who are gun owners) think that it's a stupid law.
              I don't have a lot of sympathy because I don't ever seem to see gun owners being helpful on the issue. There never seems to be "oh, here's a idea for what you can do to save lives!" It's always "No! Terrible idea! Don't do that law! It will be terrible!" It's a bunch of people who have screamed 'wolf' for the past 2 decades anytime any piece of gun legislation has ever been talked about, and never ever ever offered any actual useful constructive idea of their own into the public sphere. So when they cry wolf now, everyone ignores them, and if as a result they get hurt, they've only got themselves to blame.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                erm, we don't actually know how many guns are in NZ. We don't register guns. We register the owners.
                I was merely correcting the cited information. I agree that the 1.5M is probably a guess, given the registration situation.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Hey, welcome back!


                  An alt for Starlight?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post


                    An alt for Starlight?
                    That's my guess!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      An alt for Starlight?
                      Yes. TWeb's password recovery feature doesn't appear to be functioning properly, so I can't access my Starlight account, and have no interest in any permanent return to the site anyway. But I spotted I had made this parody account for a joke post once, so thought I'd use it for this thread.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by The Atheist Poop View Post
                        I spotted I had made this parody account for a joke post once...
                        And how did that differ from your usual contributions?
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
                          Yes. TWeb's password recovery feature doesn't appear to be functioning properly, so I can't access my Starlight account, and have no interest in any permanent return to the site anyway. But I spotted I had made this parody account for a joke post once, so thought I'd use it for this thread.
                          Contrary to and in violation of Tweb's rules, I might add...

                          We highly discourage the use of multiple registered screen names to any one single member, unless approved by an administrator. Screen names may be transferred and changed but we will request that the member choose only 1 name to post with, all other aliases will be removed. Members failing to follow this protocol may be banned without notice. Members who register a new screen name to avoid a ban, moderation or other restriction on their primary account may have their new and primary accounts banned permanently.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
                            Yes. TWeb's password recovery feature doesn't appear to be functioning properly, so I can't access my Starlight account, and have no interest in any permanent return to the site anyway. But I spotted I had made this parody account for a joke post once, so thought I'd use it for this thread.
                            Great to see you again. I haven't been here much recently. Partly because you haven't.
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              Great to see you again. I haven't been here much recently. Partly because you haven't.
                              Awwwww, that's so precious.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Awwwww, that's so precious.
                                It's essentially an admission that he's not confident he can hold his own around here.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                82 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                278 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Stoic
                                by Stoic
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                195 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X